TL;DR: Almost never.
Men and women treat apologies very differently, both as issuers and recipients.
Men tend to use apologies to try to superficially correct the sudden imbalance of power caused by an insult or impropriety. In other words, if you run into a guy on the street and spill coffee all over his shirt, you've taken away (albeit unintentionally) the power he has over both his personal space and his physical appearance. An apology is an admission of guilt, and thus an abdication of power, designed to correct the inequity created by the incident. The majority of men (men who aren't sociopaths anyway) recognize this for what it is: an earnest attempt to make things right. Most often, an apology from one man to another will be met with a modicum of respect, or at least acknowledgment of intent.
Women tend to use apologies in a decidedly different manner. It is a popular notion within TRP that women do not have as objective and internalized a sense of morality as men do. In other words, right and wrong for women is based less on an objective appraisal of the costs and benefits of actions to one party or another, and more upon whatever her current emotional state is at the time of events transpiring. When a woman is angry, for example, she will tend to be more focused on rationalizing her anger as justifiable, by whatever means necessary, in order to avoid cognitive dissonance, than in discerning whether or not she should actually be angry based on objective facts. "If it makes me feel bad, then it must be bad." When faced with a situation that may merit her issuing an apology, her decision will likely be influenced much more by the chance of losing something of value (social standing, a relationship, material possessions), than by a duty to maintain a stable moral equilibrium.
Men should view a woman on the receiving end of an apology through this same lens. The majority of the time, a woman demanding or requesting an apology is not doing so out of desire for moral rectitude or karmic balance. To a woman on the end of an impropriety, the important thing is not that power has been taken out of her hands, it's not what was actually gained or actually lost; it's that you made her feel bad. You affected her feelings in a negative way, and her feelings are the infallible compass by which she navigates the world; therefore, you must have done something wrong, and her anger is warranted.
This represents a critical fork in the road.
Maybe she is actually in the right, or maybe she is just a little girl throwing a fee-fee tantrum.
While it is important that you ultimately be able to discern one from the other, your response should be more-or-less consistent, no matter what her attitude on the surface indicates. Women are masters of disguising emotion and intent with speech and body language. Maybe she is fuming mad, screaming at you and demanding an apology. Maybe she's calmly stating her case, asserting that you are in the wrong, and she is owed an apology. Maybe she is using the latter to disguise the former. You can't really know; you're placing a bet in the blind.
Whatever the case, when faced with a situation that might merit the issuance of an apology to a woman, you should forego the thought process you apply to a conflict with another man: "have I wronged this man morally, and would an apology help make things right?" She is probably not thinking about that. Regardless of objective right and wrong, you have made her feel bad, so it is your fault, and now she thinks she wants you to fix her feelings. She doesn't.
When faced with a woman demanding an apology because she feels she has been emotionally wronged, asking for a solution she doesn't actually want, you should double down on her female bullshit by playing the game at which you excel. View the situation from a purely objective, cost-benefit perspective. Ask yourself:
- What do I stand to gain by not apologizing to her? Let's all collectively admit something. Whether you're totally right or totally wrong, it feels fucking good to stand your ground. We come from an evolutionary background in which, irrespective of morality, we often stood to gain wealth and comfort by kicking the shit out of those who opposed us, and we stood to lose our lives by not doing so. I'm of the opinion that the drive to say "fuck that and fuck you, I'm not moving an inch" is pretty deeply and purposefully ingrained in us and is usually pretty satisfying when we do so. But this is a fleeting, emotional concern that we shouldn't let unduly affect our decision-making process.
- What do I stand to lose by not apologizing to her? Think about it. What do you really stand to lose? A week or so worth of sex? If a woman can hold that over your head, it's your fault for not having other options on the back burner and letting her think The Fuck Stops with Her. Refuses to cook you meals? If a woman can hold that over your head, it's your fault for not having acquired that skill yourself. Kicks you out of the house? If you lean on a woman you're seeing for a place of residence, you have fucked up mightily and it is your fault. Any blow-back you might face is not a result of your lack of apology; it's because you failed to cultivate sufficient power and options in the first place.
- What do I stand to gain by apologizing to her? Nothing. Literally fucking nothing. An apology to a woman (and really an apology in general) doesn't fix anything. They don't solve problems. They don't un-wreck cars. They don't un-fuck secretaries. They don't redistribute alimony and child support. The don't rebuild broken families. You know what happens right after you say "sorry"? You're sorrier than you were a second ago. That's it.
- What do I stand to lose by apologizing to her? This is the big one. The quiet one. The one that no one ever thinks about. What do you stand to lose by saying "I'm sorry", two little words, a total of 3 syllables, to a woman? In a word: Frame.
Apologies between men exist to maintain maintain the balance of power, and thus peace and stability in society. That guy you spilled coffee on? If you smirked and walked away without saying anything, absent the existence of a police and the court system (relatively recent developments), he could pick up a rock and bash your skull in with it. Then your friends and relatives would seek revenge upon him. Then his friends and relatives would seek revenge upon yours. But why go to all that trouble over some coffee and a shirt? An apology between men is an important social convention, a mode of diplomacy that is the first step in preventing petty conflicts between men from reducing stable societies into a dystopian hellscapes of violence and retribution.
But when dealing with a similar situation in a male-female context, remember that that same balance of power does not exist between men and women. Female mental firmware is designed around one consistent premise: that men should always be in charge. Women only seek out and value men who have the balance power firmly in their favor. It is their first and most powerful arousal trigger, and absent that value, her attraction will cease to exist. To a degree determined by the context of the specific interaction, every time you apologize to a woman with whom you are involved, you are acknowledging yourself as her peer rather than her superior, and throwing away the power you have over her that makes you attractive. With regard to men, women view power as a less-than-zero-sum game. When she is able to usurp power from you, not only did you lose every ounce of that power you had, overall she views you as even weaker because she (a frail, indecisive little girl) was able to take it from you. When faced with an apology, most men fall back upon their well-honed and internalized sense of right and wrong. Show a man your belly in order to right a wrong, and he will typically will acknowledge your effort to make things right. Show a woman your belly to do the same, and you can rest assured her first thought, way back in the quiet, limbic recesses of her brain, will be "Wow...I could rip his guts out right now...yuck."
Not that she'll necessarily go through with it, but it will weaken your standing in her mind. Not all women do that, but all women are like that.
I'm not saying never apologize to a woman. The only absolute I will ever put forth is that you should never deal in absolutes.
Just be judicious with your words and behavior.
Whenever you think you may have wronged a woman and owe her an apology, just remember that they play a different game, by different rules, seeking different goals, and that those two little words don't mean the same thing to her as they do to you.
metallicdrama 6y ago
Almost? Just never. Never. The one or two times you’re wrong are a drop in the bucket compared to the billion times they are and they’re not going to own it. Never apologize to a woman. Ever. Men and women are not equal.
pohlrich 6y ago
why in the early stages of dating do girls say sorry for everything, sorry for saying sorry?
DeontologicalSanders 6y ago
It's the manifestation of her subconscious desire to believe she is with a man who holds her to a high standard of behavior, because he is discerning and has other options.
She wants to believe that she has to apologize or make up for every little misgiving or disappointment. She wants to believe that she can't afford to make mistakes around him because he is attractive enough that he has a better deal around the corner.
It's also a soft shit-test. She isn't really repentant for some dumb little mistake she made, nor should she be. She wants to see how he reacts. If he is immediately supplicative when she offers the apology. If he will say something like, "oh no babe, don't apologize, it's not that big of a deal, i do that all the time, blah blah blah". Or if he will act how a man acts, and enforce boundaries and structure that she needs as a woman. If he has the good judgment to recognize an unimportant, insincere apology for what it is, and ignore it.
AssumeFormlessness 6y ago
You guys are focusing on the wrong stuff. An apology in itself is not relevant, it's the context and intention that matters. If the situation justifies an apology and you apologize sincerely from a place of abundance and non-neediness it's most likely the mature and alpha thing to do. If the situation doesn't justify an apology, i.e. not relevant or serious like you said something that isn't funny, you're apologizing from a place of scarcity. You must develop emotional intelligence to judge these situations and taking the right action. It's rarely "do this and don't do that", that will make you very awkward and low status.
[deleted] 6y ago
Never apologize to a bitch, never say the words “I’m sorry.” Weather actual harm is done or not.
Use the Clinton rule, deny, deny, deny & if that don’t work, change the subject.
[deleted] 6y ago
I never apologise to women now, because I class it under one of my ten commandments: Never show weakness to women. Vulnerability is ok, I mean, you would be a complete psycho not to cry when your Mother dies, but weakness? Strict no no.
The upside of this is that it's your responsibility to not harm them in the first place. Be a sincere, respectful human being. Then you have nothing to apologise for.
studentsensei 6y ago
My ex used to apologize for any percieved slight she felt that she might have done to me but I got so tired of it that I told her something that my dad used to tell me: "I'll know your sorry when you don't do it again."
Whenever she wanted me to aplogize because "it made her feel better" to "hear" me say it I always countered with "You'll know if I'm sorry by my actions. Not my words."
Talk is cheap to me. "Thank you," means little to me. When someone thanks me I usually follow that up with "How thankful are you?" Some people laugh, some smile, but most do both and say "Thankful enough to _____."
Likewise after I thank someone I say "I'll do you a solid," or "I owe you one," letting them know that I got your back.
Actions speak louder than words. A lot of courtesies and niceties that we use have become so blas'e that they've lost most if not all of their meaning.
Regardless if I do mess up and say for instance, forget to meet a girl somewhere on time, I say "My bad." Simple but lets other people know that you acknowledged your mistake but your also not "submitting" yourself to the whim of the person you've wronged.
The phrase "I'm sorry," is a naturally submissive phrase. And the other person has to "accept" your aplogy. If you say "My bad," then they don't have to "accept" anything. Only thing they can do is just move on.
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ex_addict_bro 6y ago
I apologize to women the same way they apologize to me.
The only situation I’ve heard a woman say “sorry” was when she dialed a wrong number.
Dehryll 6y ago
I was once told by a mentor that a man should never apologize, but they should always show gratitude.
Ex. Instead of "sorry for taking up your time," it's better to say, "thanks for being patient".
I'm not sure if it applies to TRP at all (some insight would be appreciated), but people typically don't really care about how sorry someone is. They do get the warm fuzzies on the inside when thanked, because it's about them doing something good, rather than you being sorry and placing yourself at their mercy.
nu_leaf 6y ago
Very insightful. Talk in the 2nd person.
oliseo 6y ago
Absolutely this. You're right, this applies universally, from the workplace to the whorehouse.
yellowboy212 6y ago
i will apologize if i’ve truly fucked up but other than that nahhh
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[deleted] 6y ago
Good points as usual on RP
red_philosopher 6y ago
There are a couple of things this post fails to address. One, is when there's actual harm that has been done. Not some mental version of a power loss, but actual, physical or financial harm. It is appropriate when you fuck up and hurt someone who trusts you not to do so. It's a whole different thing if they deserve to be hurt that way, either by consent or your own self-defense.
Also, after getting out of a relationship with a lot of discussion on apologies, I have a belief that it's not the apology that is so offensive to a woman, but how it is communicated. Just saying "I'm sorry" by itself doesn't communicate shit. You're sorry for what? Where's the responsiblity? Men who own their shit don't pussy out and say "I'm sorry." They make shit right.
Knowing when you fucked up? Well, that's a whole different story. And until you know yourself well enough to know the difference between actually fucking up and having a woman making you think you fucked up, you'll turn into a bitch every time you apologize.
[deleted] 6y ago
I meditated on this a little bit, and I realized that apologies between adults are typically only sincere when offered completely voluntarily. When an apology is demanded, it's a power play.
I've heard many times, even from women, that apologies don't fix broken windows, that you can't undo the hurt you've caused. When an adult makes a child apologize, its usually to bring the child back into the fold of authority - they have been disobedient, and need to capitulate to that authority. When a child is made to apologize to another child, its supposed to teach them to acknowledge when they've done something to hurt someone else, but the subtext is reinforcement of social order.
But honestly, the apologies I've given sincerely were the ones I was never made to give. I thought on it, and decided I needed a change in my behavior, and gave my apology with an explanation of how to improve. But those real apologies require agency, not coercion. If something is withheld from you until you capitulate to authority, what agency is there in that? How can you expect someone's apology to be sincere if they only gave it in exchange for something they wanted?
Never apologize unless its given voluntarily.
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RedHoodhandles 6y ago
If it happens that an excuse is necessary (almost never) I work my way around to actually say that 'I'm sorry'. I just say something like 'I was wrong doing/saying blabla and I feel bad because of it'.
weshtlad 6y ago
How does this theory rest with the view of Extreme Ownership by someone like Jocko Willink? If you done wrong own it? Just don't apologise when you've nothing to apologise for I'm guessing.
Tritzel 6y ago
Good post.
Apologizing to her after a situation is pretty much submitting your frame, melting it. And the part that asks “what do I have to lose when apologizing” is fairly spot on. You shouldn’t have to lose anything, she should just be an accessory to your life, not a pivotal point in any way. ESPECIALLY If you lose sex, then she knows that you have no other options, no subconscious dread was in that relationship.
ApriliaSRT 6y ago
So what do you do instead? Would like an example..
DeontologicalSanders 6y ago
It takes two to tango. Give me an example of an impropriety you might commit in a relationship with a woman, one that you feel would merit an apology, and I will.
TheWambat 6y ago
Let's say you broke something low cost, favorite mug ect. With a guy I'd feel bad and apologize
Veretox 6y ago
"Fuck, I'll buy you a new one babe."
DeontologicalSanders 6y ago
How did it get broken? Where was it sitting? Were you using it? If it's cheap, why is it so important to her? Is there sentimental value? Is it important just because it's the one she uses all the time? What's a clumsy-ass girl with tiny little girl hands like her doing using a breakable coffee mug anyway? How about I buy you one of those YETI thermos mug things? A little girl like you would look cute af carrying a big ole coffee mug into work every day. Then again you'd look cute in a granny wig and a burlap bag so I dont see what the point is anyway...
Deny. Question. Analyze. Tease. Interject. Redirect. Entertain.
There are a million different options here, and any one of them is 10x better than "DERP SORRY BEB"
nu_leaf 6y ago
I've got one from over 10 years ago. I still feel bad about it if it crosses my mind. My girlfriend was giving me crap in bed about not doing the dishes. She was right, I wasn't working, didn't do shit around the apartment for a long, long time. She was getting fed up with me. I eventually had enough and got up and began angrily unloading the dishwasher. She came out and apologized for nagging (she almost never nagged like that) and said she wanted to help do dishes with me. It just pissed me off more. I threw a wooden spoon on the ground, saying, "You want to help? Pick that up then." A moment later I threw down a glass and shattered it. I think I did another one after that. She was crying. I was a real asshole. Now, tell me, does that not merit a sorry?
Vynxe-Vainglory 6y ago
Absolutely not.
It does merit one hell of an explanation to yourself as to why you acted like a man child, though. After you figure that out, you can relay some of your more potent reflections to her, (so long as they don’t make you look weaker); and more importantly, indications that you’ve got plans in motion to prevent that kind of horseshit from happening again.
And then you actually have to DO IT.
It’s not about her forgiving you for acting ridiculous. In this case, it’s about you making sure she feels physically safe and secure around you, and acknowledging that you’ve shaken that...and I don’t think “I’m sorry” accomplishes that effectively enough, and only serves to weaken your position as the OP and heartiste commandments say.
Anyway, it was a long time ago. Let it go, mate.
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Nutman-maddog 6y ago
The example you used wasn’t exactly great. I’m sure if you bumped into a random girl and made her spill coffee on herself you would apologize all the same. As it’s a standard social behavioral expectation.
There must be context for an apology. As you said, sometimes women will demand an apology. Usually out of context too. Typical shit test. A test of frame, you did explain that well.
In my experience the time that is appropriate to apologize to a women or anyone, is when they do not demand one. Most men won’t demand an apology from another man if they feel wronged, but rather seek revenge by their own means.
TLDR; there must be a suitable context for in order for an apology to be necessary.
manwithoutwire 6y ago
The only time I apologize is when I hit another car while driving. I'm a bad driver fyi. You could argue that apologizing ever is weak, but demanding apologies with a strong staredown when another man spills your drink is powerful because most men are conditioned so strongly to do so.
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acekilo 6y ago
I don't apologize. I state my point get into an argument and fuck the shit outta her. Problem Solved
Frenetic_Zetetic 6y ago
Never underestimate the power of a single "sorry" with no further context or explanation, coupled with a cool demeanor.
Sureshot1013 6y ago
I’m going with never
amedeo_modigliani 6y ago
When you kill a member of her family.
dlee25093 6y ago
This is just a bunch of rambling and overly wordy for the sake of it.
nu_leaf 6y ago
Translation: I don't need no fancy book learnin' to get me a good frame goin', fellers. Oh, sorry.
oliseo 6y ago
I'm sure next time he'll get the crayons so more people can understand.
;)
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saibot83 6y ago
It's simple really. Your gut will tell you. Just don't be a wuss. I'm a flawed individual and mess up all the time. I can count the amount of sincere apologies to both male and female on one hand. You gotta recognize the severity of it. In my case it has to do with massive social anxiety in combination with alcohol that has caused some juicy faux pauses. I've apologized when it's actually affected people. If I just embarrass myself I don't care but I've really hurt some people for no reason at all. People I cared about or at least liked. In those cases I've made it a point of meeting them face to face to apologize. Not profusely but telling them I fucked up, am truly sorry they got caught up in the crossfire and will take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. You got to have some sense of honor.
Praeda18 6y ago
Fundamentally to apologise is to do two things:
1) Accept another’s evaluation of the world. 2) Submit to being their inferior in it.
Classy_Amir 6y ago
Hey OP!
I feel the need to contribute to your post. Not a while ago, I lost the SD card of a girl. I actually felt really bad but I never apologized for it. As you stated, apologies don't fix problems. Instead, I bought a new SD card and gave it to her, informing her the one she gave me was lost. She wasn't angry at all, she didn't feel sad that something she had was lost. Turns out it wasn't hers. It was her father's. If it was hers, I'm sure she would've gotten emotional and started nagging.
She's a living-proof that what you said is completely correct. As long as their feelings are safe, they really really, not at all, care.
ashbae 6y ago
Your actions were the apology - you acknowledged responsibility and then took the initiative to fix your mistake. Saying sorry isn't the only way to properly aplogize to someone.
Classy_Amir 6y ago
I guess that's what this post is about. Saying two words won't fix a problem. An action might.
it_takes_the_redpill 6y ago
I'm gonna ask you something. What is your experience with women? How many LTRs, your n count?
Also, do you hate women? Like really hate them as a whole? Because if you understand their nature and accept it, I don't think you would write the way you do.
Something bothers me about these posts (3 sizeable ones in as many days) and it's not just the long winded evo-psych like what you wrote under the first point.
You just don't sound like you come from a place of experience. Not one example from the perspective of your personal experience. Not one indication of where you yourself are in life.
I don't come here for pure arm chair theory, but the theory I do read I want to have some backing to it.
You're right in that sometimes an apology won't fix things, especially if you didn't do anything wrong. But sitting here and analysing the cost benefit analysis of what I have to lose and gain by apologizing for getting her the wrong coffee by mistake is way too over analytical. If I messed it up, I own it. If girls are cunts and rarely apologize, whatever. I'm not going to lower my standards for what it means to be a man and have integrity just because women do.
What do you stand to gain from telling the truth to a woman over lying, assuming the chances are low that you will be discovered? Not much. I'd argue that lying would be the most efficacious way to get into her pants if you're good at it. I still think that's unmasculine behavior, no matter how much you want to dissect pros and cons.
argusboy 6y ago
All he said was don't apologize... Rule VIII heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/
it_takes_the_redpill 6y ago
It's a motte and Bailey argument. The center of his argument is that commandment, which I agree with, but a lot of the stuff he says surrounding it is largely conjecture if you comb it with a skeptics eye.
I'm pretty good at picking up on things from the tone of people's writing, and he's written 5 posts that give me a pretty strong suspicion that he's talking from no experience i.e. it's just armchair philosophy which is garbage.
We care about results. What results has he achieved?
Edit: in his last post about context vs. content he claims that the way content gets selected on TRP is a microcosm of the way that women choose men. I.e. we must act irrationally like women because his last post got downvoted, because clearly his post was unassailable. I refute his argument, and he goes quiet because his argument in that post was trash.
DeontologicalSanders 6y ago
Come on, man. What's my n count? How many LTRs? What's my experience with women? Where am I in my life?
Here's one for you: Why bother asking these questions when you have no way of knowing if the answers to them are real or not? I could tell you my n count is zero, or triple digits, or anywhere in between, or that I reproduce asexually by farting out glow-in-the-dark embryos, as could anyone else you asked. It wouldn't add anything to what is put forth here, and only serve to buttress or undercut whatever preconceived notions you're already carrying about me or any other poster (which, coincidentally, just aren't my concern).
At the end of the day, this is still the internet. You have no way of knowing for certain whether any given field report, reported n-count, or personal experience posted here is real, fake, replicated, or outright stolen. The only constant in this place is Reason. You can either address my ideas based on their merit and how they relate to your own experience, or ignore them if you think they have none. That's your call.
Regarding the actual content of your response, the idea is certainly not to have to go through a mechanical process of consciously cost-benefit analyzing every situation you face that might merit apologizing to a woman. For most guys on here, the broad objective should be to take an honest look at your already-existing subconscious framework for dealing with those situations, and skew it several large steps away from the speed and frequency with which most guys just reflexively kowtow to try and resolve a woman's emotional response to a problem.
wayneinthegame 6y ago
Just fucking tell us. He's calling your bluff so show your cards.
I've had to apologize to women enough to know the value of this discussion. I know that feeling in the pit of your stomach when a woman gets angry and accuses you and you have to decide what to do and having a strategy like "stand your ground" is extremely helpful.
There's a scene in Game of Thrones where the Captain of the Night's Watch admits to Jon Snow that he was right about barricading the entrance, but a leader must never admit he is wrong because losing the obedience and respect of his men.
[deleted] 6y ago
see now there's a fucking argument
it_takes_the_redpill 6y ago
If you haven't actually done any of this, then it's all just arm chair philosophizing. You know who else does that? The radfems that come up with theory on gender fluidity.
If you've never lived through this stuff I don't want to hear you giving me or anyone else here advice. If you aren't speaking from experience then you're just mixing together bits and pieces of various theories hoping you can come up with something that sticks.
If I have no reason to believe what anybody says on the internet than I have no reason to believe that any man has ever been unfairly divorce raped because that could just be them twisting the story to make themselves look good.
3 massive posts in 3 days. You clearly have a ton of theories, bro. I want to know if they come from your interactions with the world or only your interactions with this sub.
No examples provided at all.
My experience is that anybody can take one of rollos rules or heartistes commandments and use that as the centerpiece of motte and bailey arguments like yours. My experience tells me to listen to people who have actually done shit and lived through things, not 24 year olds like myself who are in the beginner stage but really good at consuming theory and writing about it.
Edit:typo
DeontologicalSanders 6y ago
Sorry man, you're not paying me, so I'm not gonna dance. Like I said, you're free to address my ideas based on merit or ignore them if you think they have none. If I choose to publish personal experience or anecdotes, it will be because I deem them relevant contributions, not because anyone else demands them. In the meantime, if something about the way I write or my post history smells fishy to you, I don't know what to tell you other than stop reading.
[deleted] 6y ago
At the very least, if you have no anecdotal points, you should evaluate the situations where the opposite is true and talk about the validity of that.
You say "A" and therefore "BCDEFG" comes next, makes sense. Now if you can't talk about scenarios where you say "A" and "XYZ" comes next, talk about why this is not likely to occur but what it would mean if it did occur. Then you can't say your post is much more than armchair theory.
Just because something makes sense, doesn't make it absolutely true. We are supposed to take everything in TRP with a grain of salt, lest we turn into hateful manchildren due to reading poorly thought out posts.
You made the post, its up to you to back that post up or at least be willing to provide some more information when asked. I'm not saying your post is bad, but if you're not willing to at least level with the skeptics, then you should just delete this post ASAP before we waste even more of our time.
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trp_nofap_rewire2018 6y ago
You only apologize if you fucked up and that’s all.
Saying “sorry” because you just cracked up a mean joke or something similar equals “I’m begging for approval, please pet me”.
Context always matters too.
Darknight03 6y ago
I told my crush she was being “extra” over text and now she is ignoring me. I believe she is hurt, should I apologize?
exit_sandman 6y ago
this is how you do it :D
trp_nofap_rewire2018 6y ago
ahahahha, never liked the show but Joey’s scenes are priceless
Nutman-maddog 6y ago
Some women pack a sad over an unintentional joke and try direct the situation as if it’s been targeted at them as a form of insult. They use this as a way of seeking attention/validation or power.
“You should consider other people’s feelings when you open your mouth in this sugar coated hamster spinning world”
“That’s not funny! Blah blah blah”
“You don’t know what I went through blah blah blah”
They will verbally attack about how offended they chose to be and how personally they take it. They will get a sense of entitlement.
Now when you apologize or explain yourself to them they won’t stop attacking. When someone simps to that they feel important and their irrational behavior gets validation.
Diffuse and ignore.
Prince_Cat_of_Cats 6y ago
It depends on the joke. If you aim to insult her family, her race, or anything that isn't within her control to improve and you say it in a cutting or mean way and she takes offense...then I think that you've crossed a line. So yes, context is very important.
oliseo 6y ago
That's falling into the fallacy that Women are precious little creatures who can do no wrong.
Some of the must hurtful, nasty, vindictive statements that have hurt me the most have come from the mouths of Women. They REALLY know how to push buttons, way more than any Man ever could, even would. When it comes to insults, Women are truly superior than Men in this regard, without doubt.
I'm sure the majority, if not all, of Men over the age of 40 will agree with me on that.
You're also falling into the fallacy that just because she feigns she taken offense that she's actually offended.
Can you not see how a Woman could use faking being offended as a means to throw a shit test at you? Seriously?
Nutman-maddog 6y ago
Spit the soy milk out bro. Yes women will throw hurtful comments at you. They may even seem nastier then what a man could say. This is when frame comes into play. You gotta maintain it.
You can call them out on shitty social skills while laughing at the whole situation or completely block it out. I’ve been in situations when they have tried everything to hurt me verbally and it didn’t work. It’s up to you to be above them. A simple, “fuck off I can’t be bothered” usually does the trick.
Don’t forget as this sub says, your greatest power is the option to walk away. Use it.
Prince_Cat_of_Cats 6y ago
Sometimes, sure. But I am a woman and I have been deeply hurt by rude comments made by men. They never apologize. It ruins whatever relationship or friendships that I have had with those people. Doesn't matter if you're male or female, if you deeply hurt someone's feelings then you should apologize if you want to be in that persons life.
But yes I know plenty of manipulative women who will not say sorry for anything. Fuck them.
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Jesi_Cat 6y ago
It is my personal opinion that an apology to either a man or a woman is two fold.
To that end, I do not think that people should apologise for things they did on purpose, well aware of the consequences/possibilities, and that people should not apologise for the way another person has taken an action or comment if it is an objectively illogical conclusion to come to. Further to this, I think that an apology is inappropriate if you have no intention to work towards fixing the immediate problem (if possible) or being mindful in controlling that it not happen again.
So as a base example:
You are visiting a friend and staying at their house. You cook yourself some breakfast and then leave for the day and accidentally leave the stove on. The house doesn't burn down or anything, but it could have.
You apologise because it is something you did, it wasn't on purpose and although you cannot go back in time to undo it, nor are there any true reparations to be made - you will be more careful/mindful in future about remembering to turn the stove top off in future.
Its important to be honest with yourself about if you are at fault. Even if there is no real damage, admitting that you made a mistake can let the other person know that you will try harder next time - which is all a reasonable person can really ask for. If you are honest in this way with yourself and those around you - I believe that when the time comes that you feel you do not owe an apology - you will have cultivated a reputation for being fair, self-evaluating and honest. Even if the other person does not respond well to your unwillingness to apologise at least you know you are justified, and hopefully others around you recognise it too.
In cases where someone would like an apology for something I do not feel I owe one for - such as someone having hurt feelings over something I have done or said, I work through this process in my mind.
Did I intend my actions or words in the way they were taken?
What was the damage? Damage to a relationship or a communication issue count as damage in my mind. Is it fair for the other party to expect me to alter my actions going forward so that this was to not reoccur.
Unless all three of those are a yes, I do not feel like I owe an apology and will instead compromise with explaining how I intended the action or statement. I clarify that I would not want my relationship with the person to be negatively affected by this current issue, and although I do not feel it is fair to expect me to alter my actions in future, that I will be more mindful of communicating my actual intent going forward and request that they give me the benefit of a doubt and should always feel empowered to ask me for clarification, or request an explanation if they are hurt by my words and actions.
Apologising if you don't meant it - diminishes your own self worth and the worth of your apology.Strive to be fair and reasonable and cultivate relationships with like minded people. Hopefully you will reach a point where an honest method of communication can supersede the need for false apologies and concessions.
*Edited: spelling
mein_kampf_for_kids 6y ago
Regardless of the other person's sex you should apologize when you're wrong and you've inconvenienced someone for being wrong.
Ikoikobythefio 6y ago
When you did something wrong. All it takes is "i was incorrect and am happy to admit it." Which seems more masculine? Owning up or trying to play tricks they see right through.
Eat better. Work out. Find a really fun hobby like hiking. Be nice to people. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated.
A strong, sensitive male is what they're looking for. Someone who understands them and their challenges but can also bro out like the best of em.
Women aren't stupid. They all know the tricks. Be cool and don't be a dick.
As32b 6y ago
Didn't read this. Way too much text for such a simple thing: You apologize when you have done something wrong that causes harm to other people, regardless whether they are a man or a woman.
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420KUSHBUSH 6y ago
Personally I find a "my bad" suffices more
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DeontologicalSanders 6y ago
Nice. Then maybe that was the right course of action in that specific context. Maybe she was looking forward to the date, and was left absolutely gutted. Maybe your frame with her is just that strong, and anything other than silence was a godsend to her, because it meant you actually give a shit.
It's also possible that when the date fell through she went out with her girlfriends. Galentine's Day. Maybe she met a cool, attractive guy while out, and he charmed the pants off her, and then fucked her all over her apartment. Maybe he snuck out at 6am without leaving her his number, and she felt betrayed. Maybe when she got that text from you, it softened the blow of that interaction. Maybe it made her appreciate you more.
Maybe it was something in between. Maybe it was something completely different and unrelated.
The point is that you were in the blind, and that apology was a bet placed in the blind. I'm genuinely glad it worked out for you; just remember that an anecdotal exception doesn't necessarily invalidate the rule.
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110101010101011 6y ago
You're taking it too personally. Yes, trp makes generalizations. If you have a special snowflake /unicorn girl, then you have no reason to defend yourself. Just keep doing what you're doing, it's working.
I've observed, on multiple occasions, girls getting stood up on valentines day. After being hit with such an insult (because these girls highly valued valentines day), they were desperate. They definitely would be open to going out with the majority of single guys who were interested and present.
The op's post and others about apologizing are black and white, but again trp generalizes. Most people just joining cannot hold frame. I think a point to be made is that apologies need to be genuine, regardless of who it is to. And I can tell you that many apologies made in relationships just aren't. As op said, people apologize to get out of a situation (the definition of a bs apology). People apologize without realizing what they did wrong.
If I want to apologize I don't do it until I've realized what I've done wrong and that can take a long time. I only do it because I genuinely want to.
Omnibrad 6y ago
The guy said it best in his post.
Not all women ARE whores. But all women are LIKE whores. You can't find a single woman who won't trade her vagina for a man's resources/utility.
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Rollo_Mayhem3 6y ago
I would apologize if you open hand slap a ONS across the face during sex and it wasn't received well, then just make sure and fuck her good...