Depression is a complex, multi-facet phenomena.

I love TRP.

I love JBP.

Both help me become the best man I can be. Read skeptically yet with an open mind and take what is useful/what you need.

He’s a hell of a lot better than a lot of leaders out there...

Jordon Peterson is neither tradcon nor right wing.

Here are people stating that Jordan Peterson is not your friend. Yet at the same time you find that you might have watched one or two of his lectures, depending on what each of you individuals found interesting.

I have done his past, present and on my way to finishing his future authoring program. It’s $30 for you to evaluate all your experiences in life up to where you are now. It’s basically a platform for you to find out what you’ve done with your life, a reflection and what you intend to do better in your coming years

If you’re one of those asshole criticizing something and yet you haven’t tried it for yourself personally I feel that you’re all talk.

I bought his self authoring program when it first came out and only implemented it in the new year. I find it utterly stupid for people to bash someone when he is clearly saying “get your life in order”, “work on yourself”, “manage yourself better”. (RedPill example(s))

I bought his book and THE FIRST CHAPTER outlines why this so called hypergamy and Alpha male hierarchy shit happens in our society using an example of lobsters. So whoever put this shit out is someone who really hasn’t taken the time to understand what he truly means. THINK FOR YOURSELF.

If you’ve been following him for a while everything he’s done has helped a significant number of people, myself included.

My only message to all you people on this sub is to THINK FOR YOURSELF. AT THE END OF THE DAY ITS YOUR INDIVIDUAL DECISION THAT COUNTS AND MAKES THE DIFFERENCE.

Anyone who makes me stronger is my friend. Anyone who makes me weaker is my enemy.

JBP has made me stronger. He has made many other men stronger. Once men are able to get out of their bedrooms and out into the world, then they'll be ready for harder truths. JBP is an ally in the fight against weakness and mediocrity.

Frankly, being a boomer, being as old as he is, it's a wonder he's any kind of redpilled at all.

There is a huge market for directing ‘lost boys’ looking for a real direction in their lives today. We've conditioned so many generations of young men (some now middle aged) to be so confused, subjective and ambiguous about masculinity that there had to be some quantitative adjustment for men socially.

I’ve said this a million times: JBP is one of the most brilliant minds of this generation. He’s Red Pill on some things, and he fights back against the established PC zeitgeist – so Alt Right, Alt Lite and various trad con franchises think he's their champion. But one of those things isn’t his personal understanding of women.

He’s very Blue Pill, very LARPy and ‘feel good’ about women. His message is always one of men needing to man up, but according to his experience women are innately good and holy. If women have faults it’s because of being manipulated and misled by bad men.

He met his wife at 7 years old and got ONEitis that lasted to this day. Today, JBP is still very much that love-sick 7y.o. is informing his ideas about women.

His wife even flagged him as a Beta when they were growing up. Consequently his frame of reference with women is one of enduring gratitude that she would (eventually) lower herself to accept him as a husband. JBPs primary philosophy is “life is suffering” so how grateful is he going to be when his wife graces him by alleviating some of that suffering? He’s a ‘bad man’ who doesn’t deserve the love of a ‘good woman’.

Now, by just my stating any of this, I’m going to be branded as an anti-JBP heretic because he appeals to the LARPy sensibilities of his followers in this romantic respect. The guy is above any criticism, but there you go.

JBP has stumbled into a social niche in an era when young men are so pathetically directionless that a message like “make your bed” sounds like its revolutionary.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I disagree but he is at least an ally.

We don't have to agree with everything. JP will attract men that would be repelled by trp and put them into position where they can take the next step.

Because every moral system is just some shit somebody sat down and came up with.

False.

It's profoundly arrogant to believe, as a young man, that you can personally derive your own code of morals to live by. Morals exist as a result of centuries of natural law derived precedent following.

"Don't murder" isn't moral by whim. It's in recognition that the victims father, brothers and uncles will come and beat you to death if you do so. "Do unto others..." isn't moral arbitrarily, it's a different wording of the reciprocity principle (when you do good things for others, they feel indebted to do the same). "Remove the log from your eye..." just means don't be a hypocrite, because you'll suffer if you are.

But one guy is so clever he knows better? That he can discard the whole set as "it's some shit".

The snake, the weasel, the boar, doesn't need morals. It doesn't need to think ahead. It just does innate snake, weasel, and boar stuff.

It's the human that really does need morals.

Jordan Peterson IS our friend. And his new book "12 Rules" is a quality read, even if he does go off on tangents about religious texts.

So RP exists to rationalize how vile you actually are. That's what it is.

We should live in a world where you should expect to get your food eaten and your things stolen.

If you're not an idiot you should, to a certain extent, believe that things of yours could get stolen. But you don't think there should be an extent do you? It should be absolutely expected that, in a perfect world, where every man acted as he should, Your food WILL get stolen.

The amount of men with daddy issues comming to rescue their substitute papa is astounding.

Can't say I blame them though but with this being said JP is a blue pill with a grain of red.

The fact that someone is "extremely" intelligent doesen't mean that the person can't be or chose to be blind to the truth to the reality of what women are.

He's basically saying to "man up", but this isn't enough these days you have to keep your pimp hand strong and ready for action.

The problem isn't that you're attacking JP, anyone with reading comprehension can see that you didn't. The problem is weak men's need for guidance, and a human's need for vague wishy washy wording to leave room for interpretation. It's how all religions have worked since forever. The problem is sensitivity to symbolism. Any negative concept associated in his name in any manner is attacked by cult followers, to control the frame that they're too invested in to have falter. The structure he provides makes them feel secure without actually having done anything for them. Feels > results for weak minded people.

Some fair points, but this analysis is too narrowly focused.

There's more to Peterson than you give credit, and if you can't see that you're not paying attention.

TRP is too simplistic in these "philosophical" matters. You live for you. Of course. But often the best thing for you includes many other people. Maybe society as a whole.

TRP also fails to give answers to the question of being a father and having children. Its unlikely to raise successful children without a stable family. No children, your genes are gone, you failed. (with the exeption of authistic math geniuses who really don't care about other people - maybe)

So supporting some set of morals is paramount. Christianity and tradcon worked pretty well for a pretty long time so its not the only choice but probably not the worst either.

Once you have sorted out your own life to a certain degree there are only two things you can do. Live in hedonism with the luxury stuff or drugs of your liking. Or care about others and the world and start working on something bigger than yourself or for people other than yourself.

Yet another post-modernist assaulting moral objectivism with idealist claims that the existence and identity of moral objects are subjective constructs. 1. You can't prove that. 2. If we go off of the saying "look at what they do not what they say" then your actions will inevitably prove you believe that moral absoltues are true. 3. What you advocate is dangerous and ultimately removes the force behind justice.

Also, I could just as easily argue that your existential absolutes pertaining to meaning are shit somebody sat down and came up with.

JP is good, and yes he does have his part to play, but people should be keen to keeping him on the ground and not on the pedestal. The man himself even says this in may of his videos. That being said, rather than being dogmatic in either approach, dipping your toes in both sides and retaining/practicing what you like is best approach overall rather than demean one over the other.

Not sure I agree with your conclusions regarding Jordan Peterson. He seems like a thoughtful individual, and nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head forcing them to buy into everything he is saying. I do like your way of thinking though. You can think outside of the box only to think yourself into another box, or fail to notice an even larger box that encompassed the first two. While it's definitely true that one can view these different factions as trying to enslave and control, one can also argue that there is the possibility of liberation from their control attempts. For example, Christianity has been called a "slave religion" because it devalorizes the material and promises a reward after death that might not exist (we can't prove the unproveable). This can enslave people and keep them from pursuing a decent standard of living, and keep them ignorant and superstitious . . . but it can also liberate people from the chains of materialism and the pointless pursuit of surplus wealth. That's the paradox. The same way liberalizing sexuality can liberate people from repressive sexual regimes, it can then turn them into slaves of their baser impulses. Unfortunately, there is no easy solution, aside from eternal vigilance, and that, of course, is full-time job itself, in which case, we find ourselves chained to the pursuit of avoiding slavery.

I don’t think Peterson is trying to convince you that there is a universal morality.

I think he is trying to convince you that you can’t disassociate a fairly common cultural morality from atheist thought because we were all ( mostly ) brought up with certain basic beliefs such as murder is bad.

Flip the script of history a bit and we are sacrificing virgins on an altar and drinking blood as an aphrodisiac or an afternoon snack. Which is fine. But then we would be operating out of that history and associated cultural memes.

In summery - take what is useful to you from all things and throw away the rest.

Now go lift or fuck.

Jordan Peterson is the man, I have nothing but respect for that guy. He helps men to take control of their manliness, be alpha, mature, assertive. I never idolize anyone, nor I am idolizing him,but nevertheless he is great for men!

No, no. You don't need to listen to his advice about women. Although he does confirm many fundamental redpill ideas.

But JBP gave me a lot of insights about psychology and philosophy. Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Jung, Heidegger are all worth understanding.

Also don't forget that political wars and narratives will ultimately effect you. If you leave it unchecked, they will enslave you further. You will have to put up a fight. Enjoy the ride :)

This is the most spectacular comment/downvote ratio I've ever seen for an announcement.

I've seen this before. I dont get it honestly. He preaches what do many of us on our sub believe and appreciate. He just did an interview against some toxic feminist (so what you're trying to say is) and beat down her blue pills narrative. He tells men to straighten up and become competent, because that's what women want. The wage gap exists but you have to look as to WHY. He talks about how women want attention and will validate their feelings or actions caused by said feelings. The guy is a classic liberal (I think more libertarian now) but I never understood the pandering argument. The guy got "famous" over a viral video of him not agreeing with some privileged feminist on campus, where he taught...

I think it's interesting that no matter what side you're on, the ideologues get pissed at JBP. Coincidence? Maybe.

Do i care about some redpillers truth or the truth of a psychologist? he's helped me improve my life in ways that i never thought i'd get out of. red pill has created a mindset that turned me into a asshole.

so you really think that listening to you is going to help? i'd rather listen to someone capable of putting things in order who is making buck in a big way lol

Go clean your room

I've never seen this sub more divided than this post here, but from what I see both sides have points, but ultimately what I think people like GLO and OP are trying to tell you guys.

Learn to think for yourself that's practically the whole point of this post, and even this subreddit.

Best way I can say this if anyone has watched ARROW the first season. You'll remember Oliver Queen was trapped on the island, and couldn't do shit for himself. Now if you're still following instead of that guy(forgot his name, but it's shadows father) teaching you to fish he just gives you the fish. What do you learn?

Jordan Peterson may or may not be right or wrong in what he's putting out, but at some point you're going to have to fend for yourself when someone kills him.

So when did Jordan Peterson try to leverage you into working for his political goals? He's always been standing for his own rights, and all he has been doing is advocating for young men to take control of his life? I don't know why there's any hostility to him in the first place. In fact, I think this sub and JP share a lot of common ground. He may not be a friend, but at the very basic level he's just another guy trying to live in the upside down world by his own values.

Look, he's a guy that produces interesting talks on youtube that are actually inquisitive and make you think.. It's refreshing to see someone from academia call academia out on it's bullshit.. Especially nonsensical post modern critique.

Academic institutions are in a sad state of affairs. They've turned into nothing more than degree factories where most men working for them are spineless and bitchwhipped by their superiors to just pass all their students to avoid uncomfortable phone calls from parents. Or professors who merely just pass women or give them an easy grad while making the male students actually work for it. If these profs fail certain students, it might mean not getting rehired for the next semester as an adjunct.

Anyway, Jordan Peterson is not god.. Just produces interesting talks and it's nice to know there are some profs in academia who aren't total bootlicking pussy worshiping cucks who pass some rich white girl who didn't even do her work all semester cause you're afraid of getting fired.

Good, I was getting pretty tired of 4chanesque version of "red pill, " which is not red at all. It's a good ol' "i'll have a good christian girl (TM) and live happily ever after".

EDIT: After reading the comments. LMAO @ all the knee-jerk reaction of betas because they think their god was foul-mouthed. Hint: he was not, it was not a critique of him, dummies.

What JP and TRP have in common:

• Both undestand the truth (i.e.: The Red Pill). Things like women's hypergamy, Alpha and Betas, frmae, The "Nice Guys", The Feminism bullshit. etc...

• Both tell men to stop being weak, and guide men to improve themselves.

The Difference:

• JP's phylosophy is St. Agustine-esque: A good man is not one who can't do any harm, a good man is one who is able to do harm, and then choose not to. He has, therefore, moral code that goes by.

• TRP's phylosophy is Stoicism. It is amoral and seeks to maximize your chances with sexual strategies no matter what.

There's a saying in the black community; "He's really smart, to a dumb nigga."

Jordan Peterson is intelligent by most means, but most of what he says is common sense, and he mostly grasps the attention of internet losers. He even expounds on how dude's have called him up in tears because feminists were talking about how white men are the root of all evil and that nonsense. He's most effective on people who are dumb asf. Case closed.

Me and JP are having a picnic lunch tomorrow - I'd say he's my friend.

When you look at what Peterson does, and you look at this post as a criticism, this would need to be a lot smarter to be persuasive.

The thing about idols is they are figuratively hollow representations of ideals, which people get upset about when they realize they are literally hollow representations of ideals.

You choose how you relate to that representation. Do you use it like a magic voodoo talisman to wave around like a dead chicken, or does it form a narrative way point for a more sophisticated understanding of your experience.

When a post gets pinned like this as an "annoucement," it comes off as an ex cathedra statement of doctrine. It's the prerogative of mods to issue these, but they should consider the quality of it first.

Why was this wonderful, perfect tradcon world of justice, health, strength, freedom, and the right way of doing shit so soundly and thoroughly defeated by feminism in a couple of decades?

It seems like you're making an assumption that Jordan Peterson is presenting us with a worldview that is just and fair. He does not say that at all.

If anything he specifically says to embrace your "monster." To be dangerous and not harmless. That means embracing RP if anything.

Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oo68hiqp9k

You know technically speaking JBP is a more successful human male than nearly every poster in this thread.

His BP sexual strategy has apparently worked out well for him too. I won't advocate for that, because he's of a different generation and a different time. We can all learn something from him without having to agree with everything he says.

Moral relativism is a plague on humanity. OP seems to support this concept. JP is a professor and psychologist and is looked up to because he is not afraid to express views that counter the current pc climate. He never claimed to be red pill. If someone finds wisdom in his words and it improves their life who the fuck is anyone else to shit on that.

I'll agree that Jordan Peterson has BP tendencies. He advocates marriage and seems very beta when he talks about relationships. But his main tenets are improving yourself, having a positive self-image, standing up against radical feminism, and being your own man. He has many times discussed the biological difference between men and women, and he talks about owning up to your masculinity.

So funnily enough, he isn't Red Pill because he's strongly against following an ideology and all that it stands for, good and bad. He picks and chooses which tenets to follow as an individual, not a member of a group with a group identity, and he advocates for others to do the same.

I fully believe that looking to mirror someone or follow them as a role model is a bad idea, always. No one should be trying to mimic Jordan Peterson and follow all his ideologies to a tee. They should listen to what he has to say, as well as others, and form their own unique perspective that is only biased by themselves. So don't try to be like him, try to take the best of what he is and incorporate that into yourself. And he just happens to have a lot of very Red Pill-aligning ideas.

Never let anyone subvert your primary directive with bullshit.

like you are doing now. you are literally telling people to stop listening or maybe stop agreeing with his philosophy.

Have a little trust in RP readers, that's all i can say. we are not (atleast most of us) are not going to run with what he says. we take his words but still only add to our philosophy with what correlates with ours.

he really tries to help the manliness in men and getting us sorted out. are you honestly saying there is only one way to man up in a RP way??

Being the anti theist bastard I am, I get the point you're making. JP has god on the brain, lots of people do. I got my red pill for religion years ago, it never set well with me because they got so much obviously wrong, and it would be good if people could pull their heads out when it comes to dogmatic fantasy.

I watch his videos and I can distill the bullshit out and get the useful parts of it. Unlike religion, which is like finding peanuts in a pile of shit then trying to rinse them enough to eat, it's more like picking the tomatoes or pickles off your sandwich. Most people "love them pickles" even if they cause brain cancer. Can't help that people like to follow along, particularly the average beta male. Nobody is going to realize religion is bullshit until they can get past the indoctrination and that cognitive dissonance that comes with being so very wrong your entire life. It's even harder when the right portrays all of us 'non delusional' types as far left 'merica hating feminist Marxists. They claim us man, we don't necessarily claim them.

However he gets lots of shit right, and the perspective he has varies enough to make me think about the male - female dynamic and it tends to expand my view, and I can easily throw out the religious nutter shit and the wistfulness for marriage, only keeping the bits I need. Being able to spot bullshit is a skill, most do not have it when it comes to religion.

You and I agree that the conservatives are not exactly friends of mine, they want me to ascribe to their belief systems and forego reason and logic for happy thoughts and the hope someday I can be fabulously wealthy too. Yeah, um fuck that. I bristle every time someone claims me for their side, the left because I'm atheist, the right because I'm hard core pro gun and see the benefit of capitalism over socialism/communism. Now the right thinks I'm a lefty because I understand science and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, had never been covered entirely by a flood, and dinosaurs never walked with man. The left wants to claim me because I give no fucks if some twat wants to end her pregnancy or Steve wants to suck Carl's turgid cock, I do not care if they want to change their gender, it's none of my concern.

There is a place where we are ourselves, we can think for ourselves, accept facts and use reason, and not be some party nut. They keep trying to drag us back into the dream where they can use us, turn us into their pawns, and then chain us to their values. It's the place where you never take the media at face value, never trust anyone who is trying to sell you something you don't need, be it salvation from shit that doesn't exist, or a bunch of shiny crap to impress people you don't like.

I like to call it reality, where snakes and donkeys don't talk, nobody is equal and they never will be, and this is the only life I get so I'm enjoying the fuck out of it while I have it. Now I'm going to watch this 19 year old slut, who is roughly a 6 with nice tits, ram a rubber cock in her snatch while I rub some man juice out of my tiny little dick.

Marriage is (was) the foundation of western civilisation. Why? Because it allowed men to pass on their values to their children. In today's hook-up, pump-and-dump world, the only men who are passing on their values are effeminate betas. The more the institution of marriage erodes, the more the west erodes.

For fuck's sake. How about each man here grow a critical thought process and digest the information for themselves. Steal what works, forget what doesn't - including TRP. There are no absolutes.

JBP is great if you're too depressed to confront the dragon of chaos in the shower in the morning but he'll encourage marriage, not spinning plates. A good sign if something works is how many successful people agree on it. Get up early, have options, work hard, don't be anxious, trust yourself, think delayed gratification, forego the present pleasure for a better one tomorrow.

Even TRP won't help you if you blindly follow every front page niche advice post every day instead of doing the simple things well and reading EC/mod posts. Cheateau Heartiste, Rollo and the fitness sub will get you farther than this sub will.

Go watch "We're Alienating Young Men, It's Sad" Jordan Tears Up When Talking About The Future Of The Youth and tell me you still think he's "not your friend".

submitted 6 hours ago * by TRP VanguardWhisper - announcement

0 points (35% upvoted)

The score (double the amount of downvotes over the upvotes) pretty much proves majority of TRP members are not here for TRP lessons but to have a goal, mission and some excitement shoved down their throats by an ideologue who can articulate better than they do.

None of these men can offer ANY reasonable criticism of JBP, mostly b/c the guy has 30+ years of studying clinical psychology and philosophy, which means they wouldn't even recognize errors in JBP ideas, let alone recognize that JBP is bullshitting them if he chose to do so.

They fell for the oldest tick in the book: confirmation bias by an authority figure. This means men like that are not unplugged, they simply want to be plugged to the kind of Matrix they agree with.

 

The reason tradcons hate these things is not because they want you to be free, but because those chains get in the way of the ones they want you to wear.

Anyone who doesn't recognize trad-con as BP missed the point of this forum completely.

My bad red pill, didn't realize I wasn't allowed to see other people.

I agree, Jordan Peterson is not your friend. He never said he was. Anybody who blindly listens to and follows anybody is not thinking for themselves.

There's plenty of stuff on this sub that is horseshit, not even gonna bother arguing about that. I'll just take what I need and use what I think is valuable. Same with JBP, maybe I won't get married. Maybe I will, it won't be because JBP, or TRP. It will be because of me.

That being said, I unabashedly think the man is brilliant and is bringing back some old wisdom. Cute how most of TRP was covered in history as well. You can't even seriously compare the nuance and thought he's put into his arguments than the pop-psych bullshit you see around here.

TRP is useful for practical tips on gaming chicks, some opinions on what game/dating is currently like on the day to day. It is not even in the same ballpark of answering questions that JBP proposes (not even answers, just merely articulates and gets you thinking).

I do agree he is not particularly insightful about modern women, but that's not what I'm listening to him for. Besides, he's old and long since been married. Of course he knows nothing of that. More than that, his opinions on masculinity and femininity are not on the temporary scope of today's society, but more on a symbolic level. Something you would expect of an academic.

Jordan's lifework has been the study of human nature, and the use of this knowledge to help people. As such, he calls bullshit on both the personal and collective dysfunction that springs from the tangled web social illusion and self deception that we label the Blue Pill. This is a good thing.

He does not, at least publicly, drill down to the inconvenient reality that the sexes are at cross-purposes on the issues of quality vs quantity, and resources versus genetics, and that both have dualistic strategies to optimize their results in the face of that. I'd be amazed if he didn't know this, but given how violently the unwoke reject that reality, and given the amount of pressure he's already under, I don't think he's got any need to go further than he already has.

I don't agree with him on every point, but I certainly respect what he's doing.

I mean, yeah, I don't believe Traditionalism is going to make a resurgence in the United States (unless things get pretty fucking bad), but this post reads like a temper tantrum. It would have been far more interesting to read WHY Jordan Peterson is wrong instead of calling a rich, popular, high status man a "cuck" (real men of dominance post on internet forums), then shitting on the values that built everything we enjoy about Western society.

Most "Alpha" men, contrary to what the average dick-swinging internet badass wants to believe, isn't some amoral sociopath who'd throw people under the bus to save himself. We're a social species, and part of leading a group is ensuring the productivity of yourself and your people. Its only natural to find solutions to our modern problems and our purpose in society. Now, I believe our technological and biological condition does mean traditionalism is doomed for the modern era, that we cannot be logic-ed out of our fundamental psychology. But ultimately "just enjoy the decline brah" only serves as a useful answer to men who want their petty revenge on a society that allegedly wronged them some way.

I also never understood this enemy of your enemy theory. It's bullshit

I think you're using JBP's name as clickbait and prescribing him as a representative of 'tradcons' when in actuality he isn't.

Great post but it's incoherent for anyone who has spent any length of time looking into JBP's message and the positions he holds.

Tradcon here. Your angsty whining has made me very interested in this Peterson guy.

Jordan Peterson held frame in the face of the Leftist agenda.

The Leftist agenda attempted to break him.

He refused to bend the knee.

The weaklings around the world took notice, "if some old professor can stand up for himself, so can I!"

Of course, there will always be those among us who trade one master for another- that is their nature.

But there are those of us who will always refuse to be slaves.

Whatever it takes to get you on the right path, is what I say. No one should be forced to be redpilled against their will, it only decreases the value of being redpilled in the SMP. I say, let them be betas if they choose.

You can lead a beta to water, but can't make him drink.

I am enjoying this thread immensely.

Tbh, I like both reading JP and watching his youtubes. Ive learned a few things I didnt know even if its regurgitated Jung and Nietzche.

That said, he doesnt have the answers for you to make your life better. Only you have that knowledge and its buried within.

If you try and find your happiness and freedom by following a 12 step program than you may as well hit unsubscibe and save the community from your uselessness

Personally, I've found the nihilism trap to be very real with trp. "Enjoy the decline" is repeated over and over here and while I certainly understand the practicality and respect the agency that it inspires, I can't help but feel a void created from this perspective.

I don't mean the void left by denying the existence of the bp fairytale and unicorns. I mean the void left by not having any sort of framework to governs one's life. Lift, eat right, find a purpose, build a business, game girls. All of these things are fucking A1, but without a more foundational set of values and directives, all but the most self disciplined duty-warriors will find himself wondering, perhaps years later, wtf is this all about?

Values.

Tradcon gives us values. It is a framework with a bedrock of responsibility to provide for and defend oneself, family and community.

The golden mean between trp and Tradcon is to adopt the values necessary to inspire taking responsibility for one's life, but end that responsibility the moment it becomes a tool used in your own manipulation by others.

When the returns received by accepting responsibility to provide and protect for yourself, family and community begin to be overshadowed by your utility to your family and community, or when your family and community begin to view you as a utility, and you feel it, that is the point in which you must pull back and become selfish.

There is CERTAINLY a balance that just be struck between Tradcon values and trp.

OP says "don't fall for the Tradcon trap as it is just another form of slavery." I say, don't fall for the nihilism trap of trp. One leads to suffering through the abuse of others, the other leads to suffering by your own inability to manage the chaos of a purposeless existence.

Don't be nieve, but don't reject benefits you receive from integrating yourself into the community and supporting others.

Normally I agree with you on most subjects, Whisper, but I don't track your judgment on traditional conservative values. Being an atheist who also happens to be conservative, I loathe the changes to modern western society that have been wrought by feminism. No-fault divorce has left millions of sons without strong fathers. Women in the workplace has depressed salaries and left our children to raise themselves.

Honestly, I don't even know who Jordan Peterson is, so I can't pass judgment on him, but I don't understand the dislike of those old style values. Perhaps you could elucidate?

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