How does spain work is it proportional representation? So all parties can win seats and it is important? If so we need more centre and also left parties (will be really hard as they are femnists naturally) that are against the gender vioelnce law and stuff like that so people who are againt it have more options... im sure there are many against excessiev feminism but cant vote vox cos fo their stance on other things
The thing is, that if someone is gonna defend a bunch of destructive politics, that matters: if you vote for them for any other reason you will get the whole pack anyway.
Basically you have just explained the “reductio ad hitlerum” fallacy. Hitler also drunk water, is water evil? of course not, but propaganda is usually based on very simple manechaeist group identity cores, if someone not considered a part of your group says something, that idea should be understood as evil and wrong and your position contrarian to it by default. Automatically people engage in cognitive distortion so they don’t have to suffer cognitive dissonance. Not one of us, then wrong and evil, truth is only found within us, us and ideology are the same thing, and in a particular ideology we found the absolute truth. Propaganda and tribalism and identity and ideology all merge together.
There are so many things I disagree with that political party, but I can also agree with some core preoccupations on the left camp, wether or not they propose good or bad policies to tackle those preoccupations. We are all biased, but in the land of propaganda there is no need for critical thinking, you just accept a pack of ideas that encompass any and all political issues, no room for personal opinions not aligned with them, conflate that with “core values” and identity, and call it a day.
People down voting my comment just because it says Hitler xd what I was trying to say is that just because someone says something that makes sense it doesn't mean he's right. Hitler was right in some things, like the need to invest in research or education. The problem is that it was at the cost of lives of innocent people. So if you heard just a small part of his speech you may have believed he was a nice guy.
Spanish guy here. Here in Spain everything that doesn't follow the same ideology or the same path as the left, is considered far right. That's the reality here, "you don't support my ideas, you're fascist"
Spain has a history of 40 years of far right dictatorship. It ended 45 years ago, so it is quite fresh in Spain memory. These people has direct line with those movements. On their dog whistles, when they do demonstrations you can see the Spanish dictatorship symbolism, they never criticize the dictatorship, they often defend it and attack the loser side of the Civil War, and so on...
Obviously, these movements, nowadays, do not promote openly the fascist ideas like 100 years ago, because they know they are unpopular, they no longer promote homophobe ideas or they don't say that women belong to the kitchen... But they really are obsessed and opose any egalitarian effort for women, gays, and so on. They have their mouth full of the sacred nation unity, but they really mention that a lot of Spanish people are the enemy of Spain. We have heard this before. You can say that you want unity, but you say that catalan and basque nationalism are the enemy, or communists, or feminist... Whoever do not agree with them are the enemy, that's not how you unify a country...
I hope I am not opening a can of worms with this comment, I just want to explain who they are (obviously from my personal and subjective perspective) for a foreigner that don't know the Spanish context.
These people has direct line with those movements.
Too bad no fucking other people are having sane political parties. That makes Vox the most sane party. Don't blame them for being right or fascist, do a competing party that takes actual equality into account, not just throw men under the bus.
Well i mean the amount of catalans that want independence and the amount of Scots/whatever other people that might want independence is not the same at all. A lot of catalans want to be treated better and want independence
They're against independentism, not catalans. And catalans are already Spanish man what are you talking about.
Vox is against the catalan (and any other local) gvt stirring shit and brainwashing people into becoming independentists in order to steal money and push their illegal agendas.
The problem is not they want independence, it is that the indepedentism is full of hate against other Spanish people and brainwashing.
Lots of people are not independentists anymore because they wanted it for economic purposes and they are only seeing people yelling like crazies and indoctrinating their kids.
Who is "the people"? Not even 50% of catalans support independentism. And the fact that you say catalan is an ethnicity, when it's not even a nationality, makes the brainwashing pretty clear to me.
You were also talking about converting/colonising Cataluña, where the hell did you pull that from? Exactly how is the Spanish gvt "colonising" Cataluña? Such bullshit man.
Do you have some quotes of them hating catalans explicitly? I am not spanish, I am just skeptical when it comes to accusations of negative nationalism and racism.
Of course there aren't, he is just another brainwashed. Catalunya's independentism is just hate. There are a few independentists that know what they are talking about, but that's not the rule.
In spanish politics that is basically the reason why that especific political party has grown so much, there are lots of people who disagree with tons of their points, but will vote them for this specific one. Im not saying I am in favour of this party, but that its what I've seen
The reason lots of people vote for Trump is because he is against abortion too. If the left realized that and stopped pushing the issue of pro choice they would get more voters as people wouldn’t have a choice they would still vote for Biden over Trump. But the left isn’t that smart when it comes to getting votes.
The reason lots of people vote for Trump is because he is against abortion too.
Is it though? A lot of Bernie voters who were cheated out of their candidate ended up voting for Trump too. And many conservatives who voted for him are not anti-abortion.
I think it's more because the guy is an outsider, and thus offered people a cleaner slate in politics.
That's also true. But voting for a slim chance of change was still better than voting for the status quo I guess.
Also, Trump advertized isolationist/mercantilist politics and withdrawal of military from abroad. The former appeals to the working class, the latter to the massive military population.
Yeah, but what kind of change? Many politicians promise change but positive change hardly ever happens.
I didn't see him advocate any "isolationist" policies except for putting tariffs on other countries, which would obviously hurt average people. As for "bringing back jobs" and making more products in the US, people are far too gullible. The manufacturing industry is obviously dying in western countries.
Yeah, but what kind of change? Many politicians promise change but positive change hardly ever happens.
I'm not trying to evaluate Trump's presidency, I'm just stating why people voted on him.
I didn't see him advocate any "isolationist" policies except for putting tariffs on other countries,
That's economic isolationism and mercantilism. It disincentivizes importing, which essentially forces the country to become more autonomous economically, and later down the line increase its exports.
which would obviously hurt average people.
Not really, no. Average people are working class or lower middle class. These people typically benefit from low ranking jobs. They lose these opportunities if their job is outsourced to China. This is part of why the US has so high wealth inequality - the ruling class and capitalists spare money by producing in China, and the working class thus doesn't get paid, or is forced to take lower wage jobs to stay competitive. Forcing companies to produce more expensively, and use local workforce through heavy fines on China for example definitely provides the US working class with more disposable income, balancing out wealth inequality. This same politics is used all around the world.
As for "bringing back jobs" and making more products in the US, people are far too gullible. The manufacturing industry is obviously dying in western countries.
See, this is EXACTLY the attitude every champagne socialist is peddling. The west is not industrially significant, we need not care about the poor, let's create a utopia where nobody has to work, and everyone gets paid!
I have no idea what people like you are thinking. The general rule of thumb is that if you have nothing to provide the world, you'll be left to your own devices, and eventually conquered and enslaved. The wealth of the west is finite. The fact that it survived this long is a miracle. Western industries desperately try to stay afloat by using clever marketing to make people buy their overpriced products. The only way to remedy this is to enter the competition, not to give up.
I'm not trying to evaluate Trump's presidency, I'm just stating why people voted on him.
And I'm just saying people are gullible fools if they thought he was gonna change anything.
That's economic isolationism and mercantilism. It disincentivizes importing, which essentially forces the country to become more autonomous.
Except the US still imports the same amount.
Not really, no. Average people are working class or lower middle class. These people typically benefit from low ranking jobs. They lose these opportunities if their job is outsourced to China.
I'm saying prices for products are more expensive in the US with tarriffs, wasn't talking about jobs which are going to be outsourced either way.
This is part of why the US has so high wealth inequality - the ruling class and capitalists spare money by producing in China, and the working class thus doesn't get paid, or is forced to take lower wage jobs to stay competitive.
Most of it is due to the endless money printing devaluing currency, and also creating huge stockmarket bubbles which benefit the wealthy. As for wages, the manufacturing sector has been one of the lowest-paying jobs for several decades.
Forcing companies to produce more expensively, and use local workforce through heavy fines on China for example definitely provides the US working class with more disposable income, balancing out wealth inequality. This same politics is used all around the world.
I see that's worked out brilliantly for everyone.
See, this is EXACTLY the attitude every champagne socialist is peddling. The west is not industrially significant, we need not care about the poor, let's create a utopia where nobody has to work, and everyone gets paid! I have no idea what people like you are thinking.
Ah, so now you think I'm a leftist even though I said no such thing? Ironic since you talk like one. The fact is manufacturing jobs are being replaced by outsourcing and automation, rightfully so. The solution is not UBI or any nonsense like that, but re-training people for better jobs and fixing our "education" system. But that takes more effort.
The general rule of thumb is that if you have nothing to provide the world, you'll be left to your own devices, and eventually conquered and enslaved. The wealth of the west is finite. The fact that it survived this long is a miracle.
Uh, alright. Don't know how wealth can be "finite" but you're the economic expert here.
Anyway, riveting discussion but I'd like to go now if you don't mind, otherwise we'll be chatting all day. Have a good day.
Sigh... You DO realise that Trump's policy HAS worked out, right? Unemployment decreased drastically. Sure, this is a long con, but the right direction. Not because Trump does it, but because it's sensible. You completely fail to understand basic market mechanisms.
Well, if other parties did fucking something about the incredibly gendered laws of Spain, instead of wanting more of them...maybe Vox wouldn't be the only sane option.
I mean its not much different in the USA its just not written on the books. But a man accused is condemned by the media, normally fired from his job and ostracized from the community even if he is innocent and is proven innocent in the courts he still suffers. This is why we need legislation to put wrongful accusers in prison for a good length of time. Maybe even a list to put them on so they wont be believed if they accuse someone again and to shame them like the man they tried to frame.
Domestic violence legislation in Spain excludes men from equal protection under the law. After they passed this legislation, they realized that their constitution prohibits discrimination, so they changed their constitution to allow this discrimination.
Yeah but in Spain it is actually the LAW. And specifically it ONLY applies to men (and only when they do something to women, not to other men), not women (even when they do it to other women)
Its not rape btw, its all crimes of men vs women. Men are automatically locked for 48 hours without trial and have to PROVE they are innocent based only on a womans word (I am not making this up, I know it sounds unbeliveabel... and yes you guessed it, estimated 350 false accusations a day)
)Thats the difference in Spain. Judges know it, lawyers know it.... its shocking its allowed... the EU appartenly has called Spain up on it.
this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
This is the well known ”Ley Integral Contra La Violencia de Género” (Integral Law Against Gendered Violence). It pisses me off how men against women is gendered violence WITHOUT KNOWING THE REASON, but the other way is just a normal fight and they might even laugh at you
It doesn't exactly say that, of course. But if you are accused of rape in spain, like in the US with the Me too movement, even if you are innocent, be very scared
See above... its so bad and dystopian, you actually wont belive it... I had to actually ask lawyers I didnt even believe something like this could exist in Europe... this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
Interesting, thanks for the link. In the USA the Supreme Court declared that sexual orientation is covered by sex as discrimination title VII. It's strange to say, but it sounds like maybe we should pass the ERA.
its so dystopian you actually wouldnt believe it is real. It applies only to men. Not women or not even women vs women
this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
A woman is superior to a man in every aspect. They can call the cops on some random guy and have him held for 3 days. After that the guy needs to go every week to the police station to sign and can't go anywhere near where that woman lives until the case is over.
Not necessarily. Know a person in Spain(female) had a kid with husband, divorced because husband turned to gambler, fam almost broke except for her(she works but doesn't make much, relies on family for help). Kid started getting bruises every time he went with dad. He abused her and keeps abusing her even after divorce(pushed her, threatened her etc).
Guy only gets to pay 100 euros a month to support kid(that is NOTHING), and he doesn't do it anyways and doesn't care. She gathered evidence (multiple therapists, pictures, emails etc) and showed the court why this kid can't be with dad, because she is afraid what's gonna happen to her kid. Court denied full custody because from their words " a father has a right to be with his son"(I guess forget all the evidence that he is an abuser).
She has to hand her kid on the weekends and hopes that something serious won't happen.
I honestly don't get how how men and women got mingle in this situation or have relationships with a law like this e.g. 48 hours in jail, restraining orders etc. are Spanish men SIMPS for not doing anything?
Nah most people don't realize. They just "don't know anyone falsely accused" so it has to be false. The only political party trying to speak about it is labeled as right wing extremists, with all media trying to censor them and even asking for their illegalization.
How tf is someone supposed to prove their innocence? Normally (supposedly) the accuser would have to prove the accused guilty. It just doesn't make sense. That's why I hate "a MaN iS GuIlTY uNtIL pRovEN InnOcENT". It's just impossible.
Spains gender law is truly unbelievable. When I first learned about it I simplu couldnt believe it was true.
The problem with Spain is that this law ONLY applies to men against women, it does not apply to men against men, or women against men or women against women....
It has actually created two sperate legal systems one for men, one for women, with men having less rights.... its an actual human rights violation.
BTW its not rape etc, its for anything.... so a womans word is full direct evidence, a mans is not
Judges even admit its bullshit and everything is fake:
this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
It's because rape is basically impossible to prove. Even if you can prove that sex took place between Person A and Person B, you can basically never prove whether it was consensual or not. So the issue is that feminists have framed the argument such that these two statements are mutually exclusive:
1) Innocent until proven guilty
2) Rape should be punished
If you insist that a person not be considered guilty until they are proven to be so, then you must be advocating for 99% of rapists to go free, because rape will be impossible to prove in almost every case. So they've framed the situation where supporting the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" means you are defending rapists, and saying that you think they should go free.
And so now we've gotten to this point, where it seems that people have listened to that garbage. So now, when it comes to rape, many people go in with the mindset that the accused is guilty until proven innocent (which is basically only possible if the accuser admits to lying). It's backwards and disgusting.
And for the record, I don't really know what the right solution is. Because they are kind of right. If we insisted on the same level of proof for rape as we do for any other crime, then in 99% of rape cases, the accused is going to be found not guilty. But that should be considered the lesser of two evils. If we have to choose between a lot of guilty people going free or a lot of innocent people going to jail, our society was founded on the idea that we should choose the former, not the latter. It's not ideal, but it's better than what we are doing right now.
The problem with our justice system in the US is your amount of innocence coincides with the amount of money you have, the lawyers you can afford and the pull you have politically on judges, the courts etc. meaning a poor man who cant afford a lawyer has little chance in winning or being found innocent. There is lots of issues at hand here. Thats why we need stronger laws against false accusers.
Yeah but UK for example has 75% conviction rate for rape (cases that go to court) and also inncent people routinly go to jail... thats why innocence project in america, most cases are rape proven false by DNA and usually against black men.... so yes it is innocent until proven guilty, but there are other things at play.... you use evidence to moun a case of guilt
Also btw, in Spain, it isn;t rape, its ALL crimes by men against women.... but not women against men (thats the actaul law, not policy, law) so there is a whole different legal system for men and women... I know it sounds to dystopian to be true but it is.... and 300 courts JUST for men not women.... also ONLY men are guility until proven innocent... I dont know how no one hasn;t challenged this in EU courts yet
What if one of the rapists going unpunished leads to an innocent person losing their life? Same goes with the argument people make about not convicting innocent people. I say this as someone who does not like sexism from either gender, and doesn't like innocent people being punished or hurt/killed.
What do you consider to be okay about someone innocent dying from a guilty person being found innocent while not considering it okay if someone innocent loses their life from an incorrect conviction?
I would rather some rapists go unpunished than even one innocent person lose their life to a lie.
What if one of the rapists going unpunished leads to an innocent person losing their life?
That doesn't change my position at all.
You have basically said you would prefer an innocent person die from a rapist going unpunished than for someone to have their life ruined from an innocent person being found guilty of rape? I'm not sure why you would rather that? and am trying to understand..
Personally I want neither to happen, but I'm not sure how to achieve that.
As do I, hence my confusion over you trying to pick apart a hypothetical situation by posing a hypothetical situation.
I would 100% rather a person be killed by a criminal than have their life ended by the justice system for a crime they didn't even commit. None of us have a solution for 100% wiping out crime, so in the absence, I'd rather our system err on the side of innocent until proven guilty, instead of guilty until proven innocent.
A wrongfully convicted person goes through the same exact shit that an actual rapist would, accept they spend the entire time KNOWING they are innocent. IMO, that's torture and I'd simply prefer that we not endorse that kind of behavior out of a fear of some unknown evil going unpunished.
Your scenario ignores the fact that sometimes, there WAS a rape committed, and in punishing the wrong person, the actual rapist is still allowed to be out there, doing their thing. All while an innocent person wastes away in prison.
TL;DR- " That doesn't change my position at all. "
John Adams once commented on the Blackstone ratio saying:
It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever
I mean that's how it used to be 150 years ago or so, at least in the US. You could also use character attacks as well so if there was no proof you commited the crime they could say that you had stolen something in the past so you are inherently untrustworthy.
In Chrono Trigger, there's 5 things you can do good or bad that speak of your character and either get you detention for kidnapping, or death penalty for kidnapping. You're still to be executed by the corrupted chancellor regardless though.
I follow many conservative and libertarian subs, never seen anything racist and being racist goes against their rules, I don’t follow republican subs because I’m not American, I’m Canadian and our liberal prime minister wears black face ffs, the left is just as racist.... you just turn a blind eye to it because you agree with the politics, also I’m dark skinned and right wing, what does that make me?
Everything you said addresses absolutely nothing towards what the person your responding to said. In the case of the american right wing the embrace of racism and homophobia, both by its following and elected officials, is undoubtedly present and growing.
Edit: also like that you included homophobia in your response after it wasn’t even implicitly mentioned. Almost as if you knew that the right wing party is well known for its homophobia
Every single time you are with a sjw they will either said you are racist or any kind of phobic, also I couldn’t care less about Americans and their politics
If you don’t care about their politics then don’t pretend like you know them. The right wing across the world is much different than the american right. Known for their racism, sexism, and homophobia. Its not even an sjw thing, its just true.
Every single country has a different mindset iglesia you don’t know them all then don’t pretend to know them, however what the lgbt movemnet have in common it’s a hatred for Masculinity and that’s something I will never support
every single country has a different mindset iglesia you don’t know them all then don’t pretend to know them.
I feel like you lack proper grammar here, but aside from that I don’t know what this means at all and towards the end it just looks like you repeat what I said but with no point?
Also its rather odd to me that you’re willing to admit that every country has a different “mindset” and in the same comment you generalize an entire group of people that are associated by their sexuality and make the claim that they all have the same mindset, a hatred even, towards masculinity? Weird.
Aside from that claim being absolutely not based in reality your definition of masculinity must be super off base lol. How exactly does the lgbt community have a collective hatred of masculinity?
Edit: For what its worth I only told you to not pretend that you know american politics because you directly stated that you don’t care for them. Your response was to inform me that all countries think differently so don’t pretend like I know all of their mindsets? Which 1, I never did, and 2, has nothing to do with anything anyway.
I haven't seen it growing. All I've seen is both parties getting more extreme in their ideologies. Also, the people who think the entire right is racist often also believe they're homophobic too. So it's no surprise they mentioned it.
The democratic party is “extreme” in being moderate, how in the world are they getting more extreme? The progressive side of the democratic party makes up a small fraction of the total so I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Nobody thinks the entire right is racist. That doesn’t excuse the fact that the republican party members consistently enact legislation that disproportionately affects black americans. Further the strong christian supporters on the right are often homophobic as well as racist. These aren’t really debated topics either, there is a decent amount that embrace the fact of their prejudices.
No, the "progressive" side is growing and influencing the mainstream corporate side, at least when it comes to social issues. This is one of the biggest problems with voting for Biden, who knows what the hell he's going to do with already sexist laws.
SJWs think the entire right is racist, and they make up a hell of a lot of Dems voters. And as a matter of fact, only a significant minority of elected officials on the right are actually racist and/or homophobic, so by your logic, what's the problem? I hope you see what I'm getting at.
I don’t think you’re properly describing the progressive left versus the progressive rhetoric being used corporations. For one, being a progressive when it comes to the left is often both economic, and social. What exactly are the progressive democrats influencing when it comes to the “mainstream corporate side” and how is it bad? Also what do you even mean by “mainstream corporate side”?
Also it really seems like you don’t understand American voter demographics because when it comes to democrats, no, SJW’s are a small minority of democrat voters. I have no idea how you imagined that to not be the case but ok. Just because they’re a loud and vocal group of people doesn’t mean they’re significant in numbers when it comes to percentage within the group.
And no, again, barely any sjw’s would say that the entire right is racist. You’re also wrong when it comes to racism within the elected officials. Why do you just assert everything as if its actually the case? Even if I grant you that there actually only is a small minority of republicans that are racist/sexist/ and homophobic, that isn’t why people call the party racist. The GOP is accused of racism because of the plethora of racist legislatures espoused by the party, alongside its sexist and homophobic policies.
Further, what exactly is the biggest problem with voting for Biden? By the only clue of what you wrote, the biggest problem when voting for him is, you’re unsure about what he is going to do with sexist laws? If you’re so confused about what his plans are, why don’t you just lookup his policies? Do you think Biden is just going to further sexism and if so how?
For one, being a progressive when it comes to the left is often both economic, and social.
Yes, and I was talking about the social aspect.
What exactly are the progressive democrats influencing when it comes to the “mainstream corporate side" and how is it bad?
You don't see how their attitudes to social issues are affecting the mainstream? Even they're now turning into SJWs, for starters.
Also what do you even mean by “mainstream corporate side”?
And it seems you also don't see how Hillary and Biden are obviously corporate puppets.
Also it really seems like you don’t understand American voter demographics because when it comes to democrats, no, SJW’s are a small minority of democrat voters. I have no idea how you imagined that to not be the case but ok. Just because they’re a loud and vocal group of people doesn’t mean they’re significant in numbers when it comes to percentage within the group.
Au contraire. Especially the younger ones.
And no, again, barely any sjw’s would say that the entire right is racist. You’re also wrong when it comes to racism within the elected officials. Why do you just assert everything as if its actually the case?
Uh, you might wanna look in the mirror.
The GOP is accused of racism because of the plethora of racist legislatures espoused by the party, alongside its sexist and homophobic policies.
Right. And you didn't get my point that the other way round also applies to the left.
By the only clue of what you wrote, the biggest problem when voting for him is, you’re unsure about what he is going to do with sexist laws?
Also economics and the endless wars in the middle east. So many unknowns.
If you’re so confused about what his plans are, why don’t you just lookup his policies?
Because stated policies are always the same as reality, right?
Do you think Biden is just going to further sexism and if so how?
I don't know how exactly. But I'm sure he'll find a way, with the progressives' help.
Anyway, I'd like to go now, otherwise we'll go on and on all day. Have a good day.
You don't see how their attitudes to social issues are affecting the mainstream? Even they're now turning into SJWs, for starters.
I feel like you're being intentionally broad when you use the term "mainstream" here. Do you not want to actually take a stance on something you feel is being changed? What I see being changed is that the progressive stance on social issues has finally started to address massive systemic problems when it comes to discrimination in America. If it comes at the expense of being more harsh on people trying to be edgy, who cares? Do you honestly want to defend those who just want to go and spew a bunch of racist, homophobic, and sexist shit everywhere? In this very sub every time I disagree with someone I get informed on how much of an "autistic retard" I am. What is it exactly that you hate so much about SJWs? That they want to take a stand against shit that is both unnecessary and harmful? And that just covers speech. I see progressives protesting in some of the largest quantities across the board in America against one of the largest racial injustices in the country, that is a hell of a good thing in my opinion. Again you're being extremely broad when it comes to answering things. What "attitude to social issue" is affecting the "mainstream"?
And it seems you also don't see how Hillary and Biden are obviously corporate puppets.
There is that baseless right-wing conspiracy that I knew was missing somewhere. If you think Biden is a corporate shill you have utterly no idea what you're talking about. And why the hell do you bring up Hillary as if I have any inclination of support for her, and how is she relevant in any way?
Au contraire. Especially the younger ones.
Not an argument, also wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_vote_in_the_United_States
I don't care to just dump a bunch of sources because I know you're not going to care enough to read (because you clearly haven't already), but the youth vote is consistently always the lowest when it comes to voter turnout. So who cares if progressive ideals is gaining traction in the most underrepresented age group when it comes to polling? You really think old people care about racial injustices, marijuana laws, and progressive policies? Again you don't understand voter demographics clearly.
Uh, you might wanna look in the mirror.
Don't care not an argument, as always. There is a difference between falsely asserting and making a claim. As well as I actually have an ability to substantiate my claims. Keep up with the conspiracies of a wide spread establishment puppetry lol i'm sure you'll get them some day! I guess im not woke enough like you clearly are to these issues.
Also economics and the endless wars in the middle east. So many unknowns.
Damn if only there were a way to find out.
Because stated policies are always the same as reality, right?
Oh yay more baseless conspiracy! Tell me, whats your solution then? If we can't trust anything a leader will say when they make campaign promises, what should we vote on these people for? How fast they can make minute rice? How about if we vote them in office and they do absolutely nothing of what they promised, you vote them out? Crazy I know. I would rather vote for the one that has created plenty of elaborate plans to tackle American problems both foreign and domestic (along with having a track record of being a successful politician when it comes to bipartisan agreements) over the one that has fulfilled next to none of their campaign promises, failed a response to a global pandemic, trashed an economy with endless trade wars, and thats not even a cent to the dollar of it.
I don't know how exactly. But I'm sure he'll find a way, with the progressives' help.
I can summarize this as "I didn't do any research and I'll just believe what I want", just like most of the other things you've said.
But hey credit where its due, the younger population definitely is becoming more progressive, hope that boogeyman doesn't keep you up at night.
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws?
The same reason American men don't care about supporting male victims. The vast majority of men are either traditionalists or feminists. Traditionalists believe that "real men" are tough enough to handle abuse from a woman. Feminists believe that women are incapable of committing abuse because only men are bad. Whichever side a man falls on he doesn't give a fuck about male victims.
No i get why men dont support other mens DV etc.... that is common, its a bit of gynocentrism etc, but also men thinking to be succesful just work hard and best succeed (which has a lot of merit it in after all we dont want to be victim feminists nor gender everything but it ties up very poorly against feminism who exploit this + gynocetnrism etc)
I mean this is an actual law that affects them personally
Ok. Assume you're a Spaniard who tries to protest against these misandric laws and out of nowhere, comes a woman who falsely accuses you of rape. No appeal, no need for evidence. You're in jail.
You need either a large-scale protest or a political voice in the Parliament to get things done.
spain still has its gender contempt laws left over from franco. eg the punishment given to a man depends on the gender of their victim.
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plus in a couple the wife can make an allegation of domestic abuse, he goes in a cell for a night or two. this triggers a payment system from the EU for victim abuse that lasts for 11 months. The wife drops the charges or changes her mind. He goes free. They get money for the next 11 months. The EU complains about it to spain and tells them to stop this, but Spanish politicians see it as a vote winner( you think the EU would have the brains to directly cut the funding off). this is a scam that has been going on for a while..
Great news. But is it not striking that, as far as I can remember, all of the people prominently speaking out on behalf of male DV victims (at least of female perpetrators) are... WOMEN. There are some male academics looking into the issue, but I only find them when I look for them, almost never running across them in the mainstream.
Why do you think this is? It is even more pronounced than the strong presence of women among prominent MRA advocates overall.
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
Because all the mass media are loyal to feminism and hide all the bad things the gender violence law is causing.
According to all the media, the number of false gender violence reports is 0.01%. This is a false truth that no journalist in mass media ever questions.
Men in Spain don't know about the law until they throw them to the cell, but then it's too late.
Unfortunately no we're not that better, especially now with the prime minister nominating his own finance minister to lead the national bank and also trying to give more millions to the national air transport company (TAP) which is a dead company that the last time it had profit was in 2017...
I dont think that their results have much to do with anti feminism in the party, i think that people might just be voting forthem because of their anti-catalanism
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
Men are more violent because they have more of an opportunity to be. If rats were giant, they’d kill everything with 0 remorse. Why don’t they now? Because they physically can’t. Also female violence has been on the rise for the last 20 years. Domestic violence is most common in lesbian relationships. It would be foolish to ignore that both sexes have the ability to be violent.
I assume this is in response to people pulling out the stat that men commit more murder/violent crime? Let me say, I agree with the sentiment here. I just hope nobody who upvoted this pulls out racial crime statistics unironically. I see a lot of that around these days
I think we have the same opinion on that. I was just pointing out that the argument (which I agree with) “Just because men kill more doesn’t mean they are the only ones who kill, and the reasons for that discrepancy should be examined”
Also applies to racial crime statistics which I keep seeing brought up in light of recent controversies
VOX is not something you want to make propaganda of. These people are nuts. They don't advocate for equality at all. They are a far-right franquist party, they are racist, homophobes, sexists and extreme patriots in the bad meaning of the word.
I know Spain has a lot to improve regarding gender laws, most of which discriminate against men, but vox is not the path towards that.
You don't fix a broken car by driving it in to a wall.
I can agree on the fact that some of their policies are too Conservative/religious and they do use patriotism as a selling point, but saying they're racist, sexist and "far right" is such bull man.
Vox is a right wing conservative party but they're not extreme by any means.
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
Well there's not much to do apart from voting for parties that are against those laws. Which then of course makes you a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, fascist cunt.
Sorry for saying this but: Are you braindead or brainwashed?
Yes, they use nationalism as propaganda, but they have nothing against homosexual or black people. They are against ILLEGAL inmigration, because it is illegal.
Also, they have nothing to do with Franco, Idk who told you that.
Neither of them, as a matter of fact, there are many things vox proposes that i completely agree with. They have some ideas that seem nice.
Abascal has openly said that he is against homosexual marriage, even though he said he has no problem with civil unions. That right there is discrimination based on the fact that you love someone of your same gender.
But, we can't forget that VOX is a party taylored to what people nowadays seek, it's a populist party, just as C's was back in its day. They make a lot of noise, but this parties live from the crispation they create.
Maybe i'm a little biased against vox because i don't like being called a nazi, a terrrorist, and things like that just for wanting to vote, but that doesn't negate what i said.
I also don't like having family buried somewhere no ones from, killed by people who nowadays seem to be idolatred and given medails.
Yeah, they have nothing to do with franco, that's why they were so happy when the fucker was moved from el valle, right? How did they call it? "No hay que remover el pasado"? "Forma parte de la memória histórica de nuestra patria"?
Well, so did my grandpa, so did my grand uncle, so did many people. And we don't even know where they are buried.
So let me tell you again.
Vox is a franquist, ultranationalist, homophobic, racist and sexist party, tailored so that those simple of mind like them. Because you have to be fucking stupid to let the tree block the forest, and not see what vox really is.
During La Transición. EVERYTHING related to Franco was forgiven. And now you want to start dividing the people again in republicanos and franquistas. THAT'S OVER. ACCEPT IT.
About populism, all parties are poulists, that's why I don't vote.
Of course i was fucking forgiven, who in his right mind would choose a dictatorship over the lamest of the democracies?
My dad was beaten with chains for putting posters, my mother beat up for dancing. My grandpa liven in fear of being killed for being part of the PCE for years. Forced labour, torture, murder, all of this happened just a fucking generation ago, and you think it's over?
I don't give shit about what was forgiven or what wasn't, i want to know where my family is buried. I want to know who was the fucker that shot them, who gave the order, and i want them to face consequences for that. As it happened in Italy and Germany.
But we are too much of a joke for that to happen. Instead, we give medals to psicopaths like billy el niño, and let them walk free after the atrocities they commited.
Nothing is over, a democratically elected governent was thrown out, and a brutal dictatoraship took over. And not a single person has faced consequences during the democracy.
They killed everyone that slightly opposed them, buried them in nameless mass graves, and now their succesors won't let us search for our family.
Nothing is over, and if you really think it is, and it's good the way it's now, you're a fucking clown, if not the entire circus.
Keep living in your "i don't vote" bubble, be careful not to break it.
Read the damn law. You can't jail a person for doing something that was legal then. My familiars also suffered it and we could research what happened to them.
And why tf you say this is not over? Saying I am a clown is not an argument. The society is not about fascistas and rojos.
So, why nazis were judged and hanged in Nuremberg? What they did was legal, wasn't it?
Why was mussolini lynched? What he did was legal, wasn't it?
"It was legal back then" doesn't fucking apply to war crimes and crimes against humanity. At least in civilized countries.
How is it possible that the people that died defending a democratically elected republic lie in nameless mass graves while the fascists that killed them have monuments to them? In what other country in europe can you see this?
How can people say "it's in the past" when we still have fucking monuments and streets in honor of those who rised against a democratically elected governent? Killing hundreds of thousands in the process, and stablishing a brutal dictatorship we have remnants of even 40 years later?
What they did wasn't legal back then. Invading a country and killing the people who lived there wasn't.
And in case you don't know, what you think isn't more important than what other people think. Yes, they are against democracy and free speech, but not because they are fascist we must censure them, they also have rights.
And our government wasn't elected that democratically. They offered us partitocracy or fascism, the choice was obvious.
Isn't it funny, Spain starts to see a marriage, relationship and birth crisis begin and now the chameleons come out, the very same who earlier supported gender based laws.
This is the most far-right there is in the Congress right now. They're mostly fascists and extremely disgusting, proven thiefs many times, but man they are ahead of the Spanish left narrative on this one. I support the current government for the most part, but they're applying some laws that are totally not very men-friendly. They don't understand the gender issue at all, they just want to appease in that regard. Posmodernism, the Achilles tendon of the modern left narrative.
I feel you got it the wrong way, they say that if the woman doesn’t have a “proper” job there should be no problem taking care of the house, which is normal because that can really be a chore.
He's not going to give you any proof, this is how it works in Spain. If you arent left wing you are like the worms inside of the dirt. Pretty sad honestly, country is doomed.
Please don't. VOX is far, far right. Climate change, holocaust, antivax kinda far right.
Gender laws in Spain are rubbish, no denying it, but supporting these people is not doing men any favours. A party that supports compulsory draft for men (only) doesn't have an ideological stand in mens rights as much as they do in benefiting themselves.
Dutch television today spoke of "excessive domestic violence against women". Not a single time during the 7 minute item there was a mention of domestic violence against men. This is why men never speak up about domestic violence, and is part of the reason why there's more male suicide.
Huh?! Can’t you kinda make a weird bid for personification of any crime that way though?! I think it’s a complex and strange statement! “Carjacking has no gender...The carjacker is as much a victim as the person being jacked.” Um, NO, I say the specifics of the person who commits a crime are relevant because they chose to commit that crime. Crimes are rarely stumbled into by accident, unless you’re taking about paperwork crimes like mistakes on your taxes. You normally have to TRY to commit a violent crime, and that means who the crimson is as a person is supremely relevant!
Let's not forget that Olona said that in a Congress debate proposed by PSOE about asking the PSOE government to take measures against speeches that deny the existence of gender violence, such as the speech of Vox. They call them "negationists".
As a Spanish, I can tell the reception of this. “Oh look at Vox, xenophobia! Francoists! Fascists! Mysogynists!“ Vox is wether very popular or very hated. Thanks to the fake right and the childish left they’re rising. As well as feminism is going up, masculinism is also growing. People are not scared anymore of saying “we’re not feminist, we want equality”. We are not scared. Opinions are radicalizing here, it is a serious problem. Men are treated like shit, but men aren’t afraid anymore. There are not big marches but soon there will be. Feminism has been obsolete for decades, people are waking up.
And Vox has a lot to do with this. This is why I would go for them, not because of their other political or economic ideas, but because I’m fed up with this. Women that destroy men’s life with false accusations and no punishment, no response. Unjustice is the new justice, inmorality is the new morality. And only few judges actually fight against false accusations (ie Calatayud). Feminist said the future was feminist. For sure, the present is abso-fucking-lutely feminist. Let’s change the slogan and go for equality.
Well-said! I’m afraid that the public conversation where I live is no where near this point yet. I see so much aggression in women these days in the name of “equality”. Actually it sounds like anger and vengeance, not feminism. Thanks for your message, it was a good read!
The amount of traitors in this thread saying women have a point is gross.
Film any and all interactions secretly, women have no right to expectation of privacy with the MeToo bullshit, if she's with you, you can film her in your home and with you at all times, these women are not to be trusted.
mhandanna 4y ago
How does spain work is it proportional representation? So all parties can win seats and it is important? If so we need more centre and also left parties (will be really hard as they are femnists naturally) that are against the gender vioelnce law and stuff like that so people who are againt it have more options... im sure there are many against excessiev feminism but cant vote vox cos fo their stance on other things
deric-do 4y ago
Happy to be Spanish but didn’t even know bout this they are the black sheep in Spain
redpandaoverdrive 4y ago
Its so sad this is the only party that its against gender bullshit.
And they will never be taken seriously because their behavior and speech in many other subject is like a bad joke.
Toxic152 4y ago
Didn't they want to close all mosques at one point?
Yes, source
redpandaoverdrive 4y ago
Yeah they grow a lot when they started talking about gender bullshit, illegal immigration and radical muslims but then they went full retard.
lonewolfsrise 4y ago
Link?
Starmind0 4y ago
Imagine thinking this is up to "agreement" of people.
mrwylli 4y ago
You don't want to associate this sub to that party man, trust me.
TheDongerNeedsFood 4y ago
Buy surely you can agree that although her party may suck, this particular point that she is making is completely valid?
OkLetterhead9 4y ago
No one is talking about the party, i'm talking about that particular speech.
I'm left wing.
Houdiniman111 4y ago
Who cares? No one should. When someone makes a good argument you shouldn't ignore it because of the source.
NesVier 4y ago
The thing is, that if someone is gonna defend a bunch of destructive politics, that matters: if you vote for them for any other reason you will get the whole pack anyway.
Houdiniman111 4y ago
Did the post advocate voting for them? Sure doesn't seem like it to me.
aurum_32 4y ago
Isn't she right in that speech?
Fulk0 4y ago
Wasn't Hitler right in some of his points?
ignigenaquintus 4y ago
Basically you have just explained the “reductio ad hitlerum” fallacy. Hitler also drunk water, is water evil? of course not, but propaganda is usually based on very simple manechaeist group identity cores, if someone not considered a part of your group says something, that idea should be understood as evil and wrong and your position contrarian to it by default. Automatically people engage in cognitive distortion so they don’t have to suffer cognitive dissonance. Not one of us, then wrong and evil, truth is only found within us, us and ideology are the same thing, and in a particular ideology we found the absolute truth. Propaganda and tribalism and identity and ideology all merge together.
There are so many things I disagree with that political party, but I can also agree with some core preoccupations on the left camp, wether or not they propose good or bad policies to tackle those preoccupations. We are all biased, but in the land of propaganda there is no need for critical thinking, you just accept a pack of ideas that encompass any and all political issues, no room for personal opinions not aligned with them, conflate that with “core values” and identity, and call it a day.
Ninja_Arena 4y ago
Not really. The only thing he was really right about was how to control a country using fear and hate.
Fulk0 4y ago
People down voting my comment just because it says Hitler xd what I was trying to say is that just because someone says something that makes sense it doesn't mean he's right. Hitler was right in some things, like the need to invest in research or education. The problem is that it was at the cost of lives of innocent people. So if you heard just a small part of his speech you may have believed he was a nice guy.
Ramnonte 4y ago
Godwin’s law, the fact that is was you first comment make it worst
Wolf0133 4y ago
Why not? What do they do?
JJRB93 4y ago
Far right wing.
Wolf0133 4y ago
Far right wing parties can be good. I dont think being left or right wing should decide which party is better, but the things they do and want.
So what did they do that makes them bad?
NotAHellriegelNoob 4y ago
Spanish guy here. Here in Spain everything that doesn't follow the same ideology or the same path as the left, is considered far right. That's the reality here, "you don't support my ideas, you're fascist"
jojo_31 4y ago
extremists are never good. And a right wing party is never progressive.
fast_edi 4y ago
Spain has a history of 40 years of far right dictatorship. It ended 45 years ago, so it is quite fresh in Spain memory. These people has direct line with those movements. On their dog whistles, when they do demonstrations you can see the Spanish dictatorship symbolism, they never criticize the dictatorship, they often defend it and attack the loser side of the Civil War, and so on...
Obviously, these movements, nowadays, do not promote openly the fascist ideas like 100 years ago, because they know they are unpopular, they no longer promote homophobe ideas or they don't say that women belong to the kitchen... But they really are obsessed and opose any egalitarian effort for women, gays, and so on. They have their mouth full of the sacred nation unity, but they really mention that a lot of Spanish people are the enemy of Spain. We have heard this before. You can say that you want unity, but you say that catalan and basque nationalism are the enemy, or communists, or feminist... Whoever do not agree with them are the enemy, that's not how you unify a country...
I hope I am not opening a can of worms with this comment, I just want to explain who they are (obviously from my personal and subjective perspective) for a foreigner that don't know the Spanish context.
SchalaZeal01 4y ago
Too bad no fucking other people are having sane political parties. That makes Vox the most sane party. Don't blame them for being right or fascist, do a competing party that takes actual equality into account, not just throw men under the bus.
fast_edi 4y ago
I think that VOX is insane, hehe, but that's the beauty of politics: different people have different opinions.
Thats why we vote, and we have a system to make decisions that affects all of us and to setlle disputes.
ThEGr33kXII 4y ago
Didn't think in the "allowed way" is my guess.
Let's be honest far right these days is the idea people have to work to get things...
Sorry, my cynical side showing.
Wolf0133 4y ago
I agree
lars1714 4y ago
That party is openly against catalans, an ethnicity in Eastern spain and want catalans to basically be converted/colonized into being Spanish
quijote3000 4y ago
That's stupid. No offense. They have multiple catalan members.
They are strongly against catalan independence. Same way any Catalonian pro-independence is against Barcelona getting independent from Catalonia
NotAHellriegelNoob 4y ago
Cataluña is Spain and it will be like that for ever
ThEGr33kXII 4y ago
I don't know how I feel about that. It's hard to know when I know so little about the history of it.
I'm a unionist in the UK and I don't think that makes me extreme...
lars1714 4y ago
Well i mean the amount of catalans that want independence and the amount of Scots/whatever other people that might want independence is not the same at all. A lot of catalans want to be treated better and want independence
SpanishPilot 4y ago
They're against independentism, not catalans. And catalans are already Spanish man what are you talking about.
Vox is against the catalan (and any other local) gvt stirring shit and brainwashing people into becoming independentists in order to steal money and push their illegal agendas.
agarciase 4y ago
I'm catalán and I can confirm
lars1714 4y ago
But the people want independence, its not brainwashing, its been like this since 1714
Jcbm52 4y ago
The problem is not they want independence, it is that the indepedentism is full of hate against other Spanish people and brainwashing.
Lots of people are not independentists anymore because they wanted it for economic purposes and they are only seeing people yelling like crazies and indoctrinating their kids.
SpanishPilot 4y ago
Who is "the people"? Not even 50% of catalans support independentism. And the fact that you say catalan is an ethnicity, when it's not even a nationality, makes the brainwashing pretty clear to me.
You were also talking about converting/colonising Cataluña, where the hell did you pull that from? Exactly how is the Spanish gvt "colonising" Cataluña? Such bullshit man.
Amazing_Rope_Police 4y ago
Are they against catalan independance, or do they just hate catalan culture? Very different things.
lars1714 4y ago
Both
Amazing_Rope_Police 4y ago
Do you have some quotes of them hating catalans explicitly? I am not spanish, I am just skeptical when it comes to accusations of negative nationalism and racism.
Jcbm52 4y ago
Of course there aren't, he is just another brainwashed. Catalunya's independentism is just hate. There are a few independentists that know what they are talking about, but that's not the rule.
weaponized_seal 4y ago
In spanish politics that is basically the reason why that especific political party has grown so much, there are lots of people who disagree with tons of their points, but will vote them for this specific one. Im not saying I am in favour of this party, but that its what I've seen
codyjoe 4y ago
The reason lots of people vote for Trump is because he is against abortion too. If the left realized that and stopped pushing the issue of pro choice they would get more voters as people wouldn’t have a choice they would still vote for Biden over Trump. But the left isn’t that smart when it comes to getting votes.
Ninja_Arena 4y ago
Wouldn't work at all. Just like the right, it's a delay breaker issue so while they MIGHT get some pro lifers, they will lose all pro choicers
Amazing_Rope_Police 4y ago
Is it though? A lot of Bernie voters who were cheated out of their candidate ended up voting for Trump too. And many conservatives who voted for him are not anti-abortion.
I think it's more because the guy is an outsider, and thus offered people a cleaner slate in politics.
The_Best_01 4y ago
Unfortunately, a "cleaner slate" means fuck all once you become part of the establishment.
Amazing_Rope_Police 4y ago
That's also true. But voting for a slim chance of change was still better than voting for the status quo I guess.
Also, Trump advertized isolationist/mercantilist politics and withdrawal of military from abroad. The former appeals to the working class, the latter to the massive military population.
The_Best_01 4y ago
Yeah, but what kind of change? Many politicians promise change but positive change hardly ever happens.
I didn't see him advocate any "isolationist" policies except for putting tariffs on other countries, which would obviously hurt average people. As for "bringing back jobs" and making more products in the US, people are far too gullible. The manufacturing industry is obviously dying in western countries.
Amazing_Rope_Police 4y ago
I'm not trying to evaluate Trump's presidency, I'm just stating why people voted on him.
That's economic isolationism and mercantilism. It disincentivizes importing, which essentially forces the country to become more autonomous economically, and later down the line increase its exports.
Not really, no. Average people are working class or lower middle class. These people typically benefit from low ranking jobs. They lose these opportunities if their job is outsourced to China. This is part of why the US has so high wealth inequality - the ruling class and capitalists spare money by producing in China, and the working class thus doesn't get paid, or is forced to take lower wage jobs to stay competitive. Forcing companies to produce more expensively, and use local workforce through heavy fines on China for example definitely provides the US working class with more disposable income, balancing out wealth inequality. This same politics is used all around the world.
See, this is EXACTLY the attitude every champagne socialist is peddling. The west is not industrially significant, we need not care about the poor, let's create a utopia where nobody has to work, and everyone gets paid! I have no idea what people like you are thinking. The general rule of thumb is that if you have nothing to provide the world, you'll be left to your own devices, and eventually conquered and enslaved. The wealth of the west is finite. The fact that it survived this long is a miracle. Western industries desperately try to stay afloat by using clever marketing to make people buy their overpriced products. The only way to remedy this is to enter the competition, not to give up.
The_Best_01 4y ago
And I'm just saying people are gullible fools if they thought he was gonna change anything.
Except the US still imports the same amount.
I'm saying prices for products are more expensive in the US with tarriffs, wasn't talking about jobs which are going to be outsourced either way.
Most of it is due to the endless money printing devaluing currency, and also creating huge stockmarket bubbles which benefit the wealthy. As for wages, the manufacturing sector has been one of the lowest-paying jobs for several decades.
I see that's worked out brilliantly for everyone.
Ah, so now you think I'm a leftist even though I said no such thing? Ironic since you talk like one. The fact is manufacturing jobs are being replaced by outsourcing and automation, rightfully so. The solution is not UBI or any nonsense like that, but re-training people for better jobs and fixing our "education" system. But that takes more effort.
Uh, alright. Don't know how wealth can be "finite" but you're the economic expert here.
Anyway, riveting discussion but I'd like to go now if you don't mind, otherwise we'll be chatting all day. Have a good day.
Amazing_Rope_Police 4y ago
Sigh... You DO realise that Trump's policy HAS worked out, right? Unemployment decreased drastically. Sure, this is a long con, but the right direction. Not because Trump does it, but because it's sensible. You completely fail to understand basic market mechanisms.
RingosTurdFace 4y ago
Also Spain - “A man is presumed guilty if accused of of a sexual assault and must prove his innocence, but not a woman”.
amey_wemy 4y ago
Guess spain really is in need of politicians such as her
NotAHellriegelNoob 4y ago
Macarena Olona is just another level, I'm glad I voted for VOX, her political party.
feminismIsMisandry0 4y ago
Paradoxically, women gain power by trying to limit the privileges they have granted themselves by manipulating men.
RingosTurdFace 4y ago
Moreso now than ever.
gamessuck00 4y ago
PUNtificated
The_Best_01 4y ago
That was a pun?
gamessuck00 4y ago
Late to the party.
The_Best_01 4y ago
What was the pun though?
gamessuck00 4y ago
Read up: i identified it.
The_Best_01 4y ago
Maybe I'm slow today, but I still don't see it. Can you spell it out for me?
gamessuck00 4y ago
I assumed name was Moreso thought it lined up lol, my bad but also his bad
[deleted] 4y ago
[deleted]
SchalaZeal01 4y ago
Well, if other parties did fucking something about the incredibly gendered laws of Spain, instead of wanting more of them...maybe Vox wouldn't be the only sane option.
codyjoe 4y ago
I mean its not much different in the USA its just not written on the books. But a man accused is condemned by the media, normally fired from his job and ostracized from the community even if he is innocent and is proven innocent in the courts he still suffers. This is why we need legislation to put wrongful accusers in prison for a good length of time. Maybe even a list to put them on so they wont be believed if they accuse someone again and to shame them like the man they tried to frame.
antifeminist3 4y ago
Domestic violence legislation in Spain excludes men from equal protection under the law. After they passed this legislation, they realized that their constitution prohibits discrimination, so they changed their constitution to allow this discrimination.
symbiote24 4y ago
That's the U. S. as well.
thefudmaster 4y ago
A man is presumed guilty everywhere when accused.
mhandanna 4y ago
Yeah but in Spain it is actually the LAW. And specifically it ONLY applies to men (and only when they do something to women, not to other men), not women (even when they do it to other women)
Its not rape btw, its all crimes of men vs women. Men are automatically locked for 48 hours without trial and have to PROVE they are innocent based only on a womans word (I am not making this up, I know it sounds unbeliveabel... and yes you guessed it, estimated 350 false accusations a day)
)Thats the difference in Spain. Judges know it, lawyers know it.... its shocking its allowed... the EU appartenly has called Spain up on it.
this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
Youmni1 4y ago
This is the well known ”Ley Integral Contra La Violencia de Género” (Integral Law Against Gendered Violence). It pisses me off how men against women is gendered violence WITHOUT KNOWING THE REASON, but the other way is just a normal fight and they might even laugh at you
Jcbm52 4y ago
The Law doesn't tell so, but effectively it is like that. That's what feminists wants.
Natxo1789 4y ago
Can you cite the exact law that says that?
quijote3000 4y ago
It doesn't exactly say that, of course. But if you are accused of rape in spain, like in the US with the Me too movement, even if you are innocent, be very scared
DuAuk 4y ago
Do you have a source for that you could point me to? I'd like to read more.
mhandanna 4y ago
See above... its so bad and dystopian, you actually wont belive it... I had to actually ask lawyers I didnt even believe something like this could exist in Europe... this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
DuAuk 4y ago
Interesting, thanks for the link. In the USA the Supreme Court declared that sexual orientation is covered by sex as discrimination title VII. It's strange to say, but it sounds like maybe we should pass the ERA.
Fulk0 4y ago
Resident in Spain. Don't get married here.
sircocklord 4y ago
Damn, why is that?
mhandanna 4y ago
https://youtu.be/-9rCcveEDaw
its so dystopian you actually wouldnt believe it is real. It applies only to men. Not women or not even women vs women
this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
sircocklord 4y ago
What in the hot crispy Kentucky fried fuck did I just watch?
mhandanna 4y ago
Yeah its true as well, I've asked lawyers and researched it, what I dont understand is how Spanish men accepted this??
Fulk0 4y ago
A woman is superior to a man in every aspect. They can call the cops on some random guy and have him held for 3 days. After that the guy needs to go every week to the police station to sign and can't go anywhere near where that woman lives until the case is over.
bzngabazooka 4y ago
Not necessarily. Know a person in Spain(female) had a kid with husband, divorced because husband turned to gambler, fam almost broke except for her(she works but doesn't make much, relies on family for help). Kid started getting bruises every time he went with dad. He abused her and keeps abusing her even after divorce(pushed her, threatened her etc).
Guy only gets to pay 100 euros a month to support kid(that is NOTHING), and he doesn't do it anyways and doesn't care. She gathered evidence (multiple therapists, pictures, emails etc) and showed the court why this kid can't be with dad, because she is afraid what's gonna happen to her kid. Court denied full custody because from their words " a father has a right to be with his son"(I guess forget all the evidence that he is an abuser).
She has to hand her kid on the weekends and hopes that something serious won't happen.
So the laws of Spain has a LONG way to go.
mhandanna 4y ago
I dont understand how Spainish men accept this? Someone I asked said there is little awareness of it??
[deleted] 4y ago
[deleted]
Fulk0 4y ago
Nah there is plenty of awareness and it's one of the big talks right now. The problem is that here the political system
mhandanna 4y ago
does your average man know?
I honestly don't get how how men and women got mingle in this situation or have relationships with a law like this e.g. 48 hours in jail, restraining orders etc. are Spanish men SIMPS for not doing anything?
En_Morfeu 4y ago
Nah most people don't realize. They just "don't know anyone falsely accused" so it has to be false. The only political party trying to speak about it is labeled as right wing extremists, with all media trying to censor them and even asking for their illegalization.
Guimanfredi 4y ago
How tf is someone supposed to prove their innocence? Normally (supposedly) the accuser would have to prove the accused guilty. It just doesn't make sense. That's why I hate "a MaN iS GuIlTY uNtIL pRovEN InnOcENT". It's just impossible.
aurum_32 4y ago
That's why the law is an abomination.
mhandanna 4y ago
Spains gender law is truly unbelievable. When I first learned about it I simplu couldnt believe it was true.
The problem with Spain is that this law ONLY applies to men against women, it does not apply to men against men, or women against men or women against women....
It has actually created two sperate legal systems one for men, one for women, with men having less rights.... its an actual human rights violation.
BTW its not rape etc, its for anything.... so a womans word is full direct evidence, a mans is not
Judges even admit its bullshit and everything is fake:
https://youtu.be/-9rCcveEDaw
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gtyui2/350\_false\_allegations\_againt\_men\_per\_day\_in\_spain/
this is btw why EVERY SINGLE tiny attemp to gender any law must be stopped and fought e.g. at the moment UK some ministers wont to add misogny as a hate crime or into the domestic violance bill (will be debated this week)
BlueSialia 4y ago
It's not really "guilty until proven innocent". Is more like the woman testimony has more value than the man's.
A few months ago I wrote this comment. Maybe it fits here and explains something.
TehReedster89 4y ago
It's because rape is basically impossible to prove. Even if you can prove that sex took place between Person A and Person B, you can basically never prove whether it was consensual or not. So the issue is that feminists have framed the argument such that these two statements are mutually exclusive:
1) Innocent until proven guilty
2) Rape should be punished
If you insist that a person not be considered guilty until they are proven to be so, then you must be advocating for 99% of rapists to go free, because rape will be impossible to prove in almost every case. So they've framed the situation where supporting the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" means you are defending rapists, and saying that you think they should go free.
And so now we've gotten to this point, where it seems that people have listened to that garbage. So now, when it comes to rape, many people go in with the mindset that the accused is guilty until proven innocent (which is basically only possible if the accuser admits to lying). It's backwards and disgusting.
And for the record, I don't really know what the right solution is. Because they are kind of right. If we insisted on the same level of proof for rape as we do for any other crime, then in 99% of rape cases, the accused is going to be found not guilty. But that should be considered the lesser of two evils. If we have to choose between a lot of guilty people going free or a lot of innocent people going to jail, our society was founded on the idea that we should choose the former, not the latter. It's not ideal, but it's better than what we are doing right now.
Guimanfredi 4y ago
Yeah makes sense.
codyjoe 4y ago
The problem with our justice system in the US is your amount of innocence coincides with the amount of money you have, the lawyers you can afford and the pull you have politically on judges, the courts etc. meaning a poor man who cant afford a lawyer has little chance in winning or being found innocent. There is lots of issues at hand here. Thats why we need stronger laws against false accusers.
mhandanna 4y ago
Yeah but UK for example has 75% conviction rate for rape (cases that go to court) and also inncent people routinly go to jail... thats why innocence project in america, most cases are rape proven false by DNA and usually against black men.... so yes it is innocent until proven guilty, but there are other things at play.... you use evidence to moun a case of guilt
Also btw, in Spain, it isn;t rape, its ALL crimes by men against women.... but not women against men (thats the actaul law, not policy, law) so there is a whole different legal system for men and women... I know it sounds to dystopian to be true but it is.... and 300 courts JUST for men not women.... also ONLY men are guility until proven innocent... I dont know how no one hasn;t challenged this in EU courts yet
https://youtu.be/-9rCcveEDaw
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gtyui2/350\_false\_allegations\_againt\_men\_per\_day\_in\_spain/
The_Best_01 4y ago
There's kind of a different legal system for men and women in every western country.
killcat 4y ago
But it's not normally that formalized and blatant.
The_Best_01 4y ago
Eh, it's still blatant.
SquirmyBurrito 4y ago
I would rather some rapists go unpunished than even one innocent person lose their life to a lie.
qu83rt 4y ago
What if one of the rapists going unpunished leads to an innocent person losing their life? Same goes with the argument people make about not convicting innocent people. I say this as someone who does not like sexism from either gender, and doesn't like innocent people being punished or hurt/killed.
SquirmyBurrito 4y ago
That doesn't change my position at all.
qu83rt 4y ago
What do you consider to be okay about someone innocent dying from a guilty person being found innocent while not considering it okay if someone innocent loses their life from an incorrect conviction?
SquirmyBurrito 4y ago
Could you clarify what it is you're asking me? Because I feel like I've made my position abundantly clear.
qu83rt 4y ago
You have basically said you would prefer an innocent person die from a rapist going unpunished than for someone to have their life ruined from an innocent person being found guilty of rape? I'm not sure why you would rather that? and am trying to understand..
Personally I want neither to happen, but I'm not sure how to achieve that.
SquirmyBurrito 4y ago
As do I, hence my confusion over you trying to pick apart a hypothetical situation by posing a hypothetical situation.
I would 100% rather a person be killed by a criminal than have their life ended by the justice system for a crime they didn't even commit. None of us have a solution for 100% wiping out crime, so in the absence, I'd rather our system err on the side of innocent until proven guilty, instead of guilty until proven innocent.
A wrongfully convicted person goes through the same exact shit that an actual rapist would, accept they spend the entire time KNOWING they are innocent. IMO, that's torture and I'd simply prefer that we not endorse that kind of behavior out of a fear of some unknown evil going unpunished.
Your scenario ignores the fact that sometimes, there WAS a rape committed, and in punishing the wrong person, the actual rapist is still allowed to be out there, doing their thing. All while an innocent person wastes away in prison.
TL;DR- " That doesn't change my position at all. "
RedSamuraiMan 4y ago
Also, jail is not the only place where one can find judgement..
Memey-McMemeFace 4y ago
Blackstone's Formulation.
sircocklord 4y ago
John Adams once commented on the Blackstone ratio saying:
It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever
afellowpadawan 4y ago
This
Bomcom 4y ago
I mean that's how it used to be 150 years ago or so, at least in the US. You could also use character attacks as well so if there was no proof you commited the crime they could say that you had stolen something in the past so you are inherently untrustworthy.
SchalaZeal01 4y ago
In Chrono Trigger, there's 5 things you can do good or bad that speak of your character and either get you detention for kidnapping, or death penalty for kidnapping. You're still to be executed by the corrupted chancellor regardless though.
lunadelsiglo 4y ago
This is the reason right wing is growing so much.
Petsweaters 4y ago
Ya, that and the embrace of racism
nacho-chonky 4y ago
The old muhhh right is racist argument
Petsweaters 4y ago
The right is pretty damned racist. See: any right wing sub, including the regular old Republican one
nacho-chonky 4y ago
I follow many conservative and libertarian subs, never seen anything racist and being racist goes against their rules, I don’t follow republican subs because I’m not American, I’m Canadian and our liberal prime minister wears black face ffs, the left is just as racist.... you just turn a blind eye to it because you agree with the politics, also I’m dark skinned and right wing, what does that make me?
RegumRegis 4y ago
Racism has no political quadrant. The left is much more racist against whites, yet we don't associate them with all racism.
Ramnonte 4y ago
An easy tip, if you think people do something or don’t like it it’s almost never because of racism nor homophobia
Petsweaters 4y ago
You might not think the right is racist, but the racists believe it
bjv2001 4y ago
Everything you said addresses absolutely nothing towards what the person your responding to said. In the case of the american right wing the embrace of racism and homophobia, both by its following and elected officials, is undoubtedly present and growing.
Edit: also like that you included homophobia in your response after it wasn’t even implicitly mentioned. Almost as if you knew that the right wing party is well known for its homophobia
Ramnonte 4y ago
Every single time you are with a sjw they will either said you are racist or any kind of phobic, also I couldn’t care less about Americans and their politics
bjv2001 4y ago
If you don’t care about their politics then don’t pretend like you know them. The right wing across the world is much different than the american right. Known for their racism, sexism, and homophobia. Its not even an sjw thing, its just true.
Ramnonte 4y ago
Every single country has a different mindset iglesia you don’t know them all then don’t pretend to know them, however what the lgbt movemnet have in common it’s a hatred for Masculinity and that’s something I will never support
bjv2001 4y ago
I feel like you lack proper grammar here, but aside from that I don’t know what this means at all and towards the end it just looks like you repeat what I said but with no point?
Also its rather odd to me that you’re willing to admit that every country has a different “mindset” and in the same comment you generalize an entire group of people that are associated by their sexuality and make the claim that they all have the same mindset, a hatred even, towards masculinity? Weird.
Aside from that claim being absolutely not based in reality your definition of masculinity must be super off base lol. How exactly does the lgbt community have a collective hatred of masculinity?
Edit: For what its worth I only told you to not pretend that you know american politics because you directly stated that you don’t care for them. Your response was to inform me that all countries think differently so don’t pretend like I know all of their mindsets? Which 1, I never did, and 2, has nothing to do with anything anyway.
The_Best_01 4y ago
I haven't seen it growing. All I've seen is both parties getting more extreme in their ideologies. Also, the people who think the entire right is racist often also believe they're homophobic too. So it's no surprise they mentioned it.
bjv2001 4y ago
The democratic party is “extreme” in being moderate, how in the world are they getting more extreme? The progressive side of the democratic party makes up a small fraction of the total so I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Nobody thinks the entire right is racist. That doesn’t excuse the fact that the republican party members consistently enact legislation that disproportionately affects black americans. Further the strong christian supporters on the right are often homophobic as well as racist. These aren’t really debated topics either, there is a decent amount that embrace the fact of their prejudices.
The_Best_01 4y ago
No, the "progressive" side is growing and influencing the mainstream corporate side, at least when it comes to social issues. This is one of the biggest problems with voting for Biden, who knows what the hell he's going to do with already sexist laws.
SJWs think the entire right is racist, and they make up a hell of a lot of Dems voters. And as a matter of fact, only a significant minority of elected officials on the right are actually racist and/or homophobic, so by your logic, what's the problem? I hope you see what I'm getting at.
bjv2001 4y ago
I don’t think you’re properly describing the progressive left versus the progressive rhetoric being used corporations. For one, being a progressive when it comes to the left is often both economic, and social. What exactly are the progressive democrats influencing when it comes to the “mainstream corporate side” and how is it bad? Also what do you even mean by “mainstream corporate side”?
Also it really seems like you don’t understand American voter demographics because when it comes to democrats, no, SJW’s are a small minority of democrat voters. I have no idea how you imagined that to not be the case but ok. Just because they’re a loud and vocal group of people doesn’t mean they’re significant in numbers when it comes to percentage within the group.
And no, again, barely any sjw’s would say that the entire right is racist. You’re also wrong when it comes to racism within the elected officials. Why do you just assert everything as if its actually the case? Even if I grant you that there actually only is a small minority of republicans that are racist/sexist/ and homophobic, that isn’t why people call the party racist. The GOP is accused of racism because of the plethora of racist legislatures espoused by the party, alongside its sexist and homophobic policies.
Further, what exactly is the biggest problem with voting for Biden? By the only clue of what you wrote, the biggest problem when voting for him is, you’re unsure about what he is going to do with sexist laws? If you’re so confused about what his plans are, why don’t you just lookup his policies? Do you think Biden is just going to further sexism and if so how?
The_Best_01 4y ago
Yes, and I was talking about the social aspect.
You don't see how their attitudes to social issues are affecting the mainstream? Even they're now turning into SJWs, for starters.
And it seems you also don't see how Hillary and Biden are obviously corporate puppets.
Au contraire. Especially the younger ones.
Uh, you might wanna look in the mirror.
Right. And you didn't get my point that the other way round also applies to the left.
Also economics and the endless wars in the middle east. So many unknowns.
Because stated policies are always the same as reality, right?
I don't know how exactly. But I'm sure he'll find a way, with the progressives' help.
Anyway, I'd like to go now, otherwise we'll go on and on all day. Have a good day.
bjv2001 4y ago
I feel like you're being intentionally broad when you use the term "mainstream" here. Do you not want to actually take a stance on something you feel is being changed? What I see being changed is that the progressive stance on social issues has finally started to address massive systemic problems when it comes to discrimination in America. If it comes at the expense of being more harsh on people trying to be edgy, who cares? Do you honestly want to defend those who just want to go and spew a bunch of racist, homophobic, and sexist shit everywhere? In this very sub every time I disagree with someone I get informed on how much of an "autistic retard" I am. What is it exactly that you hate so much about SJWs? That they want to take a stand against shit that is both unnecessary and harmful? And that just covers speech. I see progressives protesting in some of the largest quantities across the board in America against one of the largest racial injustices in the country, that is a hell of a good thing in my opinion. Again you're being extremely broad when it comes to answering things. What "attitude to social issue" is affecting the "mainstream"?
There is that baseless right-wing conspiracy that I knew was missing somewhere. If you think Biden is a corporate shill you have utterly no idea what you're talking about. And why the hell do you bring up Hillary as if I have any inclination of support for her, and how is she relevant in any way?
Not an argument, also wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_vote_in_the_United_States I don't care to just dump a bunch of sources because I know you're not going to care enough to read (because you clearly haven't already), but the youth vote is consistently always the lowest when it comes to voter turnout. So who cares if progressive ideals is gaining traction in the most underrepresented age group when it comes to polling? You really think old people care about racial injustices, marijuana laws, and progressive policies? Again you don't understand voter demographics clearly.
Don't care not an argument, as always. There is a difference between falsely asserting and making a claim. As well as I actually have an ability to substantiate my claims. Keep up with the conspiracies of a wide spread establishment puppetry lol i'm sure you'll get them some day! I guess im not woke enough like you clearly are to these issues.
Damn if only there were a way to find out.
Oh yay more baseless conspiracy! Tell me, whats your solution then? If we can't trust anything a leader will say when they make campaign promises, what should we vote on these people for? How fast they can make minute rice? How about if we vote them in office and they do absolutely nothing of what they promised, you vote them out? Crazy I know. I would rather vote for the one that has created plenty of elaborate plans to tackle American problems both foreign and domestic (along with having a track record of being a successful politician when it comes to bipartisan agreements) over the one that has fulfilled next to none of their campaign promises, failed a response to a global pandemic, trashed an economy with endless trade wars, and thats not even a cent to the dollar of it.
I can summarize this as "I didn't do any research and I'll just believe what I want", just like most of the other things you've said.
But hey credit where its due, the younger population definitely is becoming more progressive, hope that boogeyman doesn't keep you up at night.
Lion_amongst_gods 4y ago
Vox is gaining a lot of people in unexpected quarters. I hope they succeed in weeding out the misandry in Spain.
mhandanna 4y ago
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
Badgerz92 4y ago
The same reason American men don't care about supporting male victims. The vast majority of men are either traditionalists or feminists. Traditionalists believe that "real men" are tough enough to handle abuse from a woman. Feminists believe that women are incapable of committing abuse because only men are bad. Whichever side a man falls on he doesn't give a fuck about male victims.
mhandanna 4y ago
No i get why men dont support other mens DV etc.... that is common, its a bit of gynocentrism etc, but also men thinking to be succesful just work hard and best succeed (which has a lot of merit it in after all we dont want to be victim feminists nor gender everything but it ties up very poorly against feminism who exploit this + gynocetnrism etc)
I mean this is an actual law that affects them personally
[deleted] 4y ago
[deleted]
Lion_amongst_gods 4y ago
This could very well be true.
mhandanna 4y ago
Yeah I heard they lost by 1 vote/ 1 judge??
Lion_amongst_gods 4y ago
Ok. Assume you're a Spaniard who tries to protest against these misandric laws and out of nowhere, comes a woman who falsely accuses you of rape. No appeal, no need for evidence. You're in jail.
You need either a large-scale protest or a political voice in the Parliament to get things done.
[deleted] 4y ago
[deleted]
ASTRA-LUX 4y ago
Well shit, that case was horrific but not something that happens on a daily basis. The court procedures were utterly incompetent.
rahsoft 4y ago
spain still has its gender contempt laws left over from franco. eg the punishment given to a man depends on the gender of their victim.
​
plus in a couple the wife can make an allegation of domestic abuse, he goes in a cell for a night or two. this triggers a payment system from the EU for victim abuse that lasts for 11 months. The wife drops the charges or changes her mind. He goes free. They get money for the next 11 months. The EU complains about it to spain and tells them to stop this, but Spanish politicians see it as a vote winner( you think the EU would have the brains to directly cut the funding off). this is a scam that has been going on for a while..
Svenskbtch 4y ago
Great news. But is it not striking that, as far as I can remember, all of the people prominently speaking out on behalf of male DV victims (at least of female perpetrators) are... WOMEN. There are some male academics looking into the issue, but I only find them when I look for them, almost never running across them in the mainstream.
Why do you think this is? It is even more pronounced than the strong presence of women among prominent MRA advocates overall.
KarliQ 4y ago
As a woman I would love to be dominatd by a strong man who knows his place what’s wrong with these people clowns
ASTRA-LUX 4y ago
Fake AF account
double-happiness 4y ago
http://kukuruyo.com/2016/02/17/spain-gender-laws-a-country-against-men/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjgBfklmYj8
Fulk0 4y ago
She's not wrong but being someone who lives in Spain I can tell you these guys are a little crazy.
Jcbm52 4y ago
That's Spain. There is no political representation, just political ideologies. We don't have true democracy.
239990 4y ago
Trevijano gang
mhandanna 4y ago
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
Jcbm52 4y ago
Because there aren't 3 powers here. What the government does cannot be avoided.
aurum_32 4y ago
Because all the mass media are loyal to feminism and hide all the bad things the gender violence law is causing.
According to all the media, the number of false gender violence reports is 0.01%. This is a false truth that no journalist in mass media ever questions.
Men in Spain don't know about the law until they throw them to the cell, but then it's too late.
[deleted] 4y ago
[deleted]
Inowmyenglishisshit 4y ago
No, they have gay and black politicians. They are culturally conservative and on policy libertarian leaning.
Jcbm52 4y ago
u/UndeleteParent
UndeleteParent 4y ago
UNDELETED comment:
I am a bot
^please ^pm ^me ^if ^I ^mess ^up
consider supporting me?
mrworldhigh98 4y ago
Oh ok, I'm sorry even though I'm portuguese I don't pay much attention has I should to spanish politics.
Inowmyenglishisshit 4y ago
Oh yeah no problem, hopefully the situation is better there. Spain, compared to other countries like America is really fucked up.
mrworldhigh98 4y ago
Unfortunately no we're not that better, especially now with the prime minister nominating his own finance minister to lead the national bank and also trying to give more millions to the national air transport company (TAP) which is a dead company that the last time it had profit was in 2017...
gunkot 4y ago
Vox is getting good results lately. Shows that common sense trumps all. Pardon the pun.
lars1714 4y ago
I dont think that their results have much to do with anti feminism in the party, i think that people might just be voting forthem because of their anti-catalanism
mhandanna 4y ago
sixblackgeese 4y ago
Just like it's silly to ignore the statistics about which races are more violent, it's silly to ignore the statistics that men are more violent.
ill_cago 4y ago
Men are more violent because they have more of an opportunity to be. If rats were giant, they’d kill everything with 0 remorse. Why don’t they now? Because they physically can’t. Also female violence has been on the rise for the last 20 years. Domestic violence is most common in lesbian relationships. It would be foolish to ignore that both sexes have the ability to be violent.
nathanielsnider 4y ago
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria, Macarena
Que tu cuerpo es pa' darle alegria y cosa buena
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria, Macarena
Hey Macarena
Jcbm52 4y ago
Why did they downvote you? xD
Bye karma.
nathanielsnider 4y ago
eh idc
and it's only 1
Long_Childhood 4y ago
I assume this is in response to people pulling out the stat that men commit more murder/violent crime? Let me say, I agree with the sentiment here. I just hope nobody who upvoted this pulls out racial crime statistics unironically. I see a lot of that around these days
The_Best_01 4y ago
Some guy here said that men do kill more, as if that justifies pretending that men are the only ones who do it.
Long_Childhood 4y ago
I think we have the same opinion on that. I was just pointing out that the argument (which I agree with) “Just because men kill more doesn’t mean they are the only ones who kill, and the reasons for that discrepancy should be examined”
Also applies to racial crime statistics which I keep seeing brought up in light of recent controversies
The_Best_01 4y ago
Yeah, we agree. I was just mentioning what people like that guy said.
guillemqv 4y ago
No no no. Not fucking vox.
VOX is not something you want to make propaganda of. These people are nuts. They don't advocate for equality at all. They are a far-right franquist party, they are racist, homophobes, sexists and extreme patriots in the bad meaning of the word.
I know Spain has a lot to improve regarding gender laws, most of which discriminate against men, but vox is not the path towards that.
You don't fix a broken car by driving it in to a wall.
SpanishPilot 4y ago
I can agree on the fact that some of their policies are too Conservative/religious and they do use patriotism as a selling point, but saying they're racist, sexist and "far right" is such bull man.
Vox is a right wing conservative party but they're not extreme by any means.
guillemqv 4y ago
Okay, maybe extreme is an exageration, but they are racist, sexist and homophobes...
Don't get me wrong though, they have all the rights to think that way, and I truly mean it.
239990 4y ago
please, can you link to something that proves that?
SpanishPilot 4y ago
I don't think anyone has the right to be sexist, homophobic or racist. Theres laws against that. And I don't consider Vox any of those things.
mhandanna 4y ago
why do spanish men accept the gender violence laws? And why has their been no legal challenges? Someone should take it to EU court of human rights, they would probably win, MRAs have women in EU
SpanishPilot 4y ago
Well there's not much to do apart from voting for parties that are against those laws. Which then of course makes you a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, fascist cunt.
Mattcaz92 4y ago
Embracing tyranny to own the libs.
a_lonely_boy_ 4y ago
Based
guillemqv 4y ago
I don't quite get your comment...
Jcbm52 4y ago
Sorry for saying this but: Are you braindead or brainwashed?
Yes, they use nationalism as propaganda, but they have nothing against homosexual or black people. They are against ILLEGAL inmigration, because it is illegal.
Also, they have nothing to do with Franco, Idk who told you that.
guillemqv 4y ago
Neither of them, as a matter of fact, there are many things vox proposes that i completely agree with. They have some ideas that seem nice.
Abascal has openly said that he is against homosexual marriage, even though he said he has no problem with civil unions. That right there is discrimination based on the fact that you love someone of your same gender.
But, we can't forget that VOX is a party taylored to what people nowadays seek, it's a populist party, just as C's was back in its day. They make a lot of noise, but this parties live from the crispation they create.
Maybe i'm a little biased against vox because i don't like being called a nazi, a terrrorist, and things like that just for wanting to vote, but that doesn't negate what i said.
I also don't like having family buried somewhere no ones from, killed by people who nowadays seem to be idolatred and given medails.
Yeah, they have nothing to do with franco, that's why they were so happy when the fucker was moved from el valle, right? How did they call it? "No hay que remover el pasado"? "Forma parte de la memória histórica de nuestra patria"?
Well, so did my grandpa, so did my grand uncle, so did many people. And we don't even know where they are buried.
So let me tell you again.
Vox is a franquist, ultranationalist, homophobic, racist and sexist party, tailored so that those simple of mind like them. Because you have to be fucking stupid to let the tree block the forest, and not see what vox really is.
(Which doesn't mean they don't have good points)
Jcbm52 4y ago
During La Transición. EVERYTHING related to Franco was forgiven. And now you want to start dividing the people again in republicanos and franquistas. THAT'S OVER. ACCEPT IT. About populism, all parties are poulists, that's why I don't vote.
guillemqv 4y ago
Forgiven, fun word you use here.
Of course i was fucking forgiven, who in his right mind would choose a dictatorship over the lamest of the democracies?
My dad was beaten with chains for putting posters, my mother beat up for dancing. My grandpa liven in fear of being killed for being part of the PCE for years. Forced labour, torture, murder, all of this happened just a fucking generation ago, and you think it's over?
I don't give shit about what was forgiven or what wasn't, i want to know where my family is buried. I want to know who was the fucker that shot them, who gave the order, and i want them to face consequences for that. As it happened in Italy and Germany.
But we are too much of a joke for that to happen. Instead, we give medals to psicopaths like billy el niño, and let them walk free after the atrocities they commited.
Nothing is over, a democratically elected governent was thrown out, and a brutal dictatoraship took over. And not a single person has faced consequences during the democracy.
They killed everyone that slightly opposed them, buried them in nameless mass graves, and now their succesors won't let us search for our family.
Nothing is over, and if you really think it is, and it's good the way it's now, you're a fucking clown, if not the entire circus.
Keep living in your "i don't vote" bubble, be careful not to break it.
Jcbm52 4y ago
Read the damn law. You can't jail a person for doing something that was legal then. My familiars also suffered it and we could research what happened to them. And why tf you say this is not over? Saying I am a clown is not an argument. The society is not about fascistas and rojos.
guillemqv 4y ago
So, why nazis were judged and hanged in Nuremberg? What they did was legal, wasn't it?
Why was mussolini lynched? What he did was legal, wasn't it?
"It was legal back then" doesn't fucking apply to war crimes and crimes against humanity. At least in civilized countries.
How is it possible that the people that died defending a democratically elected republic lie in nameless mass graves while the fascists that killed them have monuments to them? In what other country in europe can you see this?
How can people say "it's in the past" when we still have fucking monuments and streets in honor of those who rised against a democratically elected governent? Killing hundreds of thousands in the process, and stablishing a brutal dictatorship we have remnants of even 40 years later?
How can people think this is okay?
Jcbm52 4y ago
What they did wasn't legal back then. Invading a country and killing the people who lived there wasn't. And in case you don't know, what you think isn't more important than what other people think. Yes, they are against democracy and free speech, but not because they are fascist we must censure them, they also have rights. And our government wasn't elected that democratically. They offered us partitocracy or fascism, the choice was obvious.
Jcbm52 4y ago
As an Spanish I am proud there are people like her. I don't vote because democracy in Spain is not a thing, but if I did, I would vote them.
Inowmyenglishisshit 4y ago
Please dont mistake Falange Española (which arent Nazis but still) with Vox.
akihonj 4y ago
Isn't it funny, Spain starts to see a marriage, relationship and birth crisis begin and now the chameleons come out, the very same who earlier supported gender based laws.
afellowpadawan 4y ago
This is the most far-right there is in the Congress right now. They're mostly fascists and extremely disgusting, proven thiefs many times, but man they are ahead of the Spanish left narrative on this one. I support the current government for the most part, but they're applying some laws that are totally not very men-friendly. They don't understand the gender issue at all, they just want to appease in that regard. Posmodernism, the Achilles tendon of the modern left narrative.
[deleted] 4y ago
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239990 4y ago
how?
MrMusic_58 4y ago
And other things.
xigoi 4y ago
u/UndeleteParent
UndeleteParent 4y ago
UNDELETED comment:
I am a bot
^please ^pm ^me ^if ^I ^mess ^up
consider supporting me?
xigoi 4y ago
Good bot
[deleted] 4y ago
[deleted]
aurum_32 4y ago
False, they never said that. I you think they did, prove it.
dabausindahaus 4y ago
I feel you got it the wrong way, they say that if the woman doesn’t have a “proper” job there should be no problem taking care of the house, which is normal because that can really be a chore.
MrMusic_58 4y ago
I dont think so.
239990 4y ago
wow, can you link a video or something?
aurum_32 4y ago
He won't because that party has never said that. It's the common "Vox wants to send women to kitchens" left wing uses to attack them.
ProudOutLoud 4y ago
He's not going to give you any proof, this is how it works in Spain. If you arent left wing you are like the worms inside of the dirt. Pretty sad honestly, country is doomed.
239990 4y ago
Sadly, I know and suffer it every day
MrMusic_58 4y ago
Search in the internet, It Will be in spanish but...
239990 4y ago
ho thanks, next time try to have a source for your affirmations, did some fast searches and can't find it, maybe I'm using the wrong words
MrMusic_58 4y ago
Ok man
OnlyOneIronMan888 4y ago
My new favorite politician
scousers 4y ago
Please don't. VOX is far, far right. Climate change, holocaust, antivax kinda far right.
Gender laws in Spain are rubbish, no denying it, but supporting these people is not doing men any favours. A party that supports compulsory draft for men (only) doesn't have an ideological stand in mens rights as much as they do in benefiting themselves.
OnlyOneIronMan888 4y ago
I know but it's progress India is a better country because I'm pretty sure they have the most support for the MRM
Bexirt 4y ago
Same
OnlyOneIronMan888 4y ago
Happy cake day
Bexirt 4y ago
Thanks
boltyboltbolt 4y ago
VOX??! Uhm, imma pass on this one
apollonovski 4y ago
Well I'm all for you guys but that's just statistically wrong. Our killing game is far ahead of that of chicks.
Neveah_Hope_Dreams 4y ago
Yaaaaaaas girl!!!
Goo on her! I need to find a clip of her speech. Good on her for speaking up against the often forgotten issue of misandry.
I appreciate this wonderful politician. Equality for men and women in Spain!
Cogo5646 4y ago
Men just tend to be more violent
jarNO_WAY 4y ago
Dutch television today spoke of "excessive domestic violence against women". Not a single time during the 7 minute item there was a mention of domestic violence against men. This is why men never speak up about domestic violence, and is part of the reason why there's more male suicide.
FlyingSeaMan509 4y ago
And by a simple statement, she’s infinitely more attractive ♾
Heterodynist 4y ago
Huh?! Can’t you kinda make a weird bid for personification of any crime that way though?! I think it’s a complex and strange statement! “Carjacking has no gender...The carjacker is as much a victim as the person being jacked.” Um, NO, I say the specifics of the person who commits a crime are relevant because they chose to commit that crime. Crimes are rarely stumbled into by accident, unless you’re taking about paperwork crimes like mistakes on your taxes. You normally have to TRY to commit a violent crime, and that means who the crimson is as a person is supremely relevant!
MagicMatt480 4y ago
finally
Badgerz92 4y ago
And another reminder that men's rights has no gender. Thank you to all the women who stand up for men's equality!
ScheduleNo 4y ago
Ayy Macarena
Jcbm52 4y ago
AY
The_Best_01 4y ago
They're brave to be saying that in Spain, even if they are far-right nutjobs.
[deleted] 4y ago
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The_Best_01 4y ago
But these ones are the exception cause they actually are.
aurum_32 4y ago
Let's not forget that Olona said that in a Congress debate proposed by PSOE about asking the PSOE government to take measures against speeches that deny the existence of gender violence, such as the speech of Vox. They call them "negationists".
PSOE wants to silence any opposition to feminism.
Youmni1 4y ago
As a Spanish, I can tell the reception of this. “Oh look at Vox, xenophobia! Francoists! Fascists! Mysogynists!“ Vox is wether very popular or very hated. Thanks to the fake right and the childish left they’re rising. As well as feminism is going up, masculinism is also growing. People are not scared anymore of saying “we’re not feminist, we want equality”. We are not scared. Opinions are radicalizing here, it is a serious problem. Men are treated like shit, but men aren’t afraid anymore. There are not big marches but soon there will be. Feminism has been obsolete for decades, people are waking up.
And Vox has a lot to do with this. This is why I would go for them, not because of their other political or economic ideas, but because I’m fed up with this. Women that destroy men’s life with false accusations and no punishment, no response. Unjustice is the new justice, inmorality is the new morality. And only few judges actually fight against false accusations (ie Calatayud). Feminist said the future was feminist. For sure, the present is abso-fucking-lutely feminist. Let’s change the slogan and go for equality.
Futurism2097 4y ago
Well-said! I’m afraid that the public conversation where I live is no where near this point yet. I see so much aggression in women these days in the name of “equality”. Actually it sounds like anger and vengeance, not feminism. Thanks for your message, it was a good read!
Rafa_strat 4y ago
Be careful with VOX party. For them women shouldn’t be allowed to have a bank account or buy property.
They are far far right wing. The use some recycled nazi slogans.
While Spain is nuts about equality (just protects women) this party should not be encouraged.
CloudAreRed 4y ago
AWALT. One woman standing up against feminists doesn't make it any better.
ASTRA-LUX 4y ago
Are you fucking retarded or just pretending? This is r/MensRights not an incel sub.
The_Whorror_Show 4y ago
The amount of traitors in this thread saying women have a point is gross.
Film any and all interactions secretly, women have no right to expectation of privacy with the MeToo bullshit, if she's with you, you can film her in your home and with you at all times, these women are not to be trusted.