I apologize about the length of this, but wanted to provide the details of my unique struggle with a very common issue. I'm open to and will be appreciative of thoughtful responses - I don't want to leave my wife or cheat on her. We are both 38 years old and have been married nearly 5 years - which has been happy more often than not. I did something a little different before getting married, I wrote out and itemized my expectations of the marriage and her. I shared this with her, explained my reasoning, and had her commit in writing to my expectations (she actually negotiated one point with me.) Health and beauty is very important to me so I included in the expectations that she was to was to maintain her attractiveness, health and girlish figure and that if she becomes unhealthily overweight it will be grounds for divorce. Which she agreed to.
She's kept her commitment to the extent that she is not overweight (she's maintained a very healthy weight and has a nice busty-petite frame) and is disciplined about eating a healthy diet - she still looks good naked! However, she has little to no interest in anything that might cultivate and maintain her beauty. I did get her a gym membership once and we attended together (she was a little bored there) - now she says there's NO WAY she'd go to the gym. She hates makeup (she's worn it maybe three times since we've been together). She's not very interested in dressing stylishly (she wears dumpy old clothes far too often for my liking). It's been about a half decade since she refreshed her wardrobe. On my urging she's gone through little phases when she would do very light workouts at home (Yoga sessions or squats in the mornings) but she would quit anytime I stopped reminding her to do them. She walks almost everyday - running errands around town - which I'm sure helps maintain her weight. I'm a very different story, I'm a little vain and do a lot to stay in shape and good looking. I go to the gym 2-3 times weekly. I sun tan during the summer. I try to keep my wardrobe fresh with a few stylish new items every year. I'm always looking for some new thing that I can do to stay healthy and good looking - which she's not very interested in. I have an attractive and healthy wife in decent shape now, but fear I won't in a few short years if she remains so stubborn.
I have talked to her about my disappointment with her disregard for cultivating and maintaining her beauty. Reminding her of the commitment she soberly made. In fact, we've talked about it A LOT - I even put together a cultivating beauty plan for her itemizing the things she could be doing. I've explained to her a million times that she should exercise and challenge her body a bit primarily for her own good, so she can avoid the chronic pain and health issues that tormented her parents for decades. She would say "Yes, I'm not going to get fat. I'll try to do better" and then she'll put in a minimal effort for about a week. We've fought about it enough times that I've temporarily given up trying to get her to do anything. I'm angry about this about half the time, it's distracted me from a work a lot, and has been bad for my sleep. This is incredibly frustrating to me, I see other attractive women out and about and think about how my wife would totally outshine them if she made a little bit of concerted effort. I'd love to go to the gym or do workouts with her, but she'd rather do a movie night at home together. Also, because of my interest in Biohacking, I have access to a bunch of beauty hacks; Anti-aging supplements, fitness equipment, etc which I use and would love to share with her. But she'd rather sit on the bed and scroll social media. The conventional advice given to husbands in my position is "If you want your wife to be sexy, make her feel sexy" and "Set a good example, do fitness stuff with her." And I have really tried those two things, repeatedly, with disappointing results. The other advice I've heard is "flirt innocently with other attractive women. Let your wife see that other women find you attractive" - This I have not done, seems disrespectful.
And I should share something BIG I screwed up on. A few years back, I would watch porn infrequently (a few times a month). Which I foolishly thought she was OK with, then she checked my browsing history and had a big blow-up. She was very hurt. I committed to no more porn (which I've kept, haven't looked at any for over 3 years now - including the borderline softcore porn that can easily be found on social media). But the damage was done. She had betrayal trauma, a common response among women to discovering their partners' porn stash. She acted a bit crazy for a bad 6 months after this. I made a real effort to understand betrayal trauma and what she was going through - reading books, blogs, etc. We arrived at a healing habit of me doing a daily validation session with her; we would cuddle up and I would sincerely tell her how I found her beautiful, sexy - how she was the only one I had eyes for. At the same time, I did some personal transformational work on some deeply ingrained promiscuous mindsets I had - that I needed visual novelty when it came to women. My wife's unspoken expectations of the marriage were that I'd be 100% faithful to her - even in my fantasies and internal world, anything less was metaphysical cheating to her which I first thought was absurd. But applying a lot of mental discipline I've gotten to the point where I only think about her as a sexual being, I don't have a spank bank of random women in my head. With years of diligent commitment, mental fortitude, and hundreds of these little validation sessions we've rebuilt her self-esteem and trust between us. She no longer feels the need to check my browsing history (which I gave her full access to).
Her latest excuse for not keeping her commitments is, the most valid one yet, we lost a child and had a stillbirth earlier this summer. Now she is in grieving and refuses do things like staying in shape or mental health habits (the kinds of things that would actually accelerate her healing). She is convinced that the only thing that will heal her and make her happy again is having a healthy baby (and she wants to rush into another pregnancy). I however refuse to have a baby with a woman who refuses to show me the basic level of respect: making a little effort to be beautiful for me.
Throughout all this we maintained some romance and a healthy sex life. In many ways she's a good wife; being thoughtful, helping me with errands, preparing nutritious meals, etc. But she's needlessly resistant to doing the cultivating beauty things that would make her healthier (and me a lot happier!) I've even told her, let me pick up some more of the domestic responsibilities so you can take the time to do home workouts. And she hasn't changed her behavior. Oddly, she would rather be my "maid" than my beauty queen. A little more about her. She is (for the most part) very conservative. She had very little sexual experience before me (I confirmed this).
So you're probably starting to see my frustration. I've made it exceedingly clear to her that she is my only source of womanly beauty in this world. I've made a BIG change in my behavior and mindset to align with the very high expectation of faithfulness that she has.
I see my desire for beauty as the flipside of her desire for faithfulness. I have a lot of resentment around the fact that she's done little to reciprocate and make a similar effort to be beautiful for me. I don't expect her to do 90-minute grueling gym sessions like me, but she could easily spend 10-minutes a day (about the amount of time I would spend on validation for her betrayal trauma recovery) doing something that made her beautiful and healthy. But she refuses because it's outside her comfort zone. Now I'm the one who feels betrayed.
We had a ANOTHER big fight about this last night. Talked about divorce. She wants to do couples therapy. I'm open to this if she's open to making some changes on her side. Final piece of information that might be important; I live in her country (Eastern Europe), I can pack up and leave at anytime without legal entanglements or obligations.
I'll be grateful for any thoughtful responses. Especially from men who have navigated the same issue.
Vermillion-Rx Admin 1y ago Stickied
edit. Normally I'd ask OP to put this in askTRP but he hasn't and it's a high effort post so restoring the post to allow comments.
Post will NOT be removed
Original text:
Please ask this is askTRP
I'm sending you your post in DMs so you don't lose it. Flair it in AskTRP as "relationship question"
Questions do not belong in TheRedPill
brendag 1y ago
I'm sorry to hear about the challenges you're facing in your relationship. It's clear that you've put a lot of thought and effort into addressing your concerns. Considering the complexity of the situation, couples therapy could be a constructive step. Open communication in therapy might help both of you express your needs and find common ground. Keep in mind that change takes time, and a professional therapist can provide guidance and support. On another note, if you're interested in addressing certain aesthetic concerns, you might explore options like Botox products. It's essential to approach such choices thoughtfully and, if considering it, consult with a healthcare professional to ensure safety and suitability. If you're looking for order Botox products online USA, ensure that you only order from reputable sources to prioritize safety and authenticity.
Lone_Ranger 2 1y ago
sorry dude, I might have misread the situation first time around - can you answer me this: how is the sex life? How often do you have sex? Who intiates it? Is the sex good for you? for her? This is a really important part of it.
Lone_Ranger 2 1y ago
I've read your post a few times now, and I can't really figure out what is going on. You write;
"she's maintained a very healthy weight and has a nice busty-petite frame"
So what is the problem?
Guechevara 1y ago
There is so much wrong in your thinking on how to approach it, that it covers whole sidebar ( which is compedium, on how to unfuck yourself).
Forum usually is for someone that don't know about Sidebar existence, or has further problems after reading it, in your case it is clear you didnt read it.
Noone will cover your problems here. There's too many. Unless you're ready to read responses that will cover 5% of what sidebar covers and improve your relatiinship by 10%.
In short
Gradually start to treat her as slave or be ready to raise not your child.
Read sidebar information compedium.
Lone_Ranger 2 1y ago
Hi man,
currently suffering a similar situation (wife not interested in sex). Me 52, she 44.
I have to say, this the DBR (dead bedroom) issue is perhaps the single most misunderstood concept in modern relationship theory, and there is a good reason for that. The reason? Because modern relationship theory is dominated by feminist thinking. Think about how many more women there are in the therapy business than men.
So - here is my theory:
In general, its much more common for a woman to go off sex than a man, while in an LTR. Men often experience an increase in sexual attraction to their wives as a result of increased intimacy that an LTR brings.
Women often lose sexual appetite for their husbands as a result of being in an LTR with their partner. The 'domesticated' man is not sexy to most women. Women are attracted to alpha men, and the truest signal of male alphaness is his proclivity to have sex with many women. As soon as he is in a monogamous LTR, the female slowly loses lust for him.
The truth is there for all to see - women hate incels and they lust after 'playas'. As soon as you are in an LTR, you have sort of 'cut off your dick'. You're now a sexless male enuch. As beta as beta can be.
The solution is to spend less time with your wife. Spend more time away from her, and look after yourself. Make sure that you flirt with other women subtely. Make sure that your wife believes that you could pull if you wanted to. Spend time with guy friends.
Don't let her boss you around. You said that you 'made a big mistake a while ago' because your wife caught you looking at porn. Your response should have been 'I'll look at whatever I want - and its none of your business" YOu don't need to tell her that you have needs and she is at fault for not putting out, because that would be defending yourself. You havn't done anythign wrong by looking at porn. I
If she is upset by you looking at porn, then that is tough shit for her. That means she is insecure. Good. An insecure woman will take steps to change the situation - a secure woman will just sit back and blame you for everything.
It sounds like you need to change the dynamic. You have allowed her to become the alpha in this LTR. YOu need to reasert yourself. You are allowed to look at porn whenever you like, and you are allowed to go out and hang out with the guys. Maybe stay over some nights at your buddies house and don't text her.
mattyanon Admin 1y ago
OP does not have a dead bedroom issue.
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Lionsmane8 1y ago
He doesn't have a dead bedroom problem.
He has an aging wife that stopped looking after herself.
Lone_Ranger 2 1y ago
those are one and the same thing - a wife that doesn't care is the very essence of a dead bedroom
mattyanon Admin 1y ago
Lack of interest in sex is very different from not looking after herself.
Sadly you have misread OP's post and you have answered about your own circumstances rather than his.
Lone_Ranger 2 1y ago
maybe I was reading between the lines a bit - that's what it sounds like - I have redirected a question to OP
Durek_The_Bald 1y ago
Never put leaving or "cheating" off the table. It should always be an option, lest you want her to have an unreasonable amount of power over you. I mean really internalise that. If you have to do it to internalise it, then so be it.
Laying down boundaries is all fine and dandy. But it's pointless, even counter-productive, if you aren't going to follow through on them. And I don't see you divorcing her. That's what you said you'd do though, so now you look weak. If you aren't going to follow through on your so-called boundaries, then don't lay them down in the first place.
Another thing which is pointless, is to listen to what she says about said boundaries. It means absolutely nothing. Watch what they do, don't listen to what they say. Laying down boundaries is only for her to know what she's got to work with - not for her to say shit, and you believing it.
So that whole thing was all pointless, and even worse.
3 days a week is the bare minimum - not 2-3 times a week. If that standard doesn't even cross your mind, we've already established that you're unattractive. No amount of sun tanning is going to fix that.
Whilst I agree porn is always bad for you - even in small amounts - there is no way this constitutes a BIG screw up. It's a MINOR screw up at worst. The fact that you think it's such a big screw-up, and are being so apologetic about it, shows you have ZERO frame.
Jesus fucking Christ. I'm done here. You need to get working on the sidebar ASAP.
As for the trauma of the stillbirth: Yeah, that's some real shit. I'm sorry you both had to go through that. And that's all I can say about it, because it's above my level of "expertise".
I will say this though: Through tough times, whatever they are, it's even more crucial for you to have frame, and to be an attractive man. If you aren't the rock, there's no way you can lead her through it. Fix the man, and everyone around you benefits.
So get working on the sidebar, lift, and get back to us once you know what to ask.
Lone_Ranger 2 1y ago
"3 days a week is the bare minimum - not 2-3 times a week. If that standard doesn't even cross your mind, we've already established that you're unattractive. No amount of sun tanning is going to fix that."
100% agree - 3x per week is bare min. On the other days, you should do some other sport, at min a 30 minute run OR game of tennis OR 45 minute bike ride etc. You have to do something for you health EVERY day. Every damn day.
the amount of guys that neglect cardio is crazy. go to the gym all you like - if you can't run without stopping for 30 minutes, you're the equivalent of a 'beater' . You're a piece of junk.
Lionsmane8 1y ago
Obvious mistakes:
Married woman same age as him
No dread
Expecting reciprocation from a woman
Doing "validation session" shit.
Thinking couples therapy works
You sound too "nice". But you seem to have boundaries.
Your main issues are points 3 & 4. Then dread.
whytehorse2021 1y ago
I had the exact same problem(wife getting fat, watching youtube all day). So I decided to leave her. In order to leave her I started practicing red pill theory/game on her and getting into shape. I started putting myself first. I told her she's fat and I'm not attracted to fat chicks. I went and joined a gym and started going 3x/wk. Made her go with me. She started seeing other women checking me out and getting jealous of her. Sure as shit she started working out like crazy.
That's passive dread, my friend.
Typo-MAGAshiv 2 1y ago
Christ, there's a lot here, and a lot that you're doing wrong. A lot of other people have already said some good stuff, and I'll try not to repeat too much that you'll have already read by now. (Some things were also bad and/or useless, but I'll leave that alone.)
like others have said, read the sidebar
additionally, and more importantly, go to old.reddit.com/r/MarriedRedPill and read the sidebar there, especially the top 3 books (NMMNG, MMSL, and WISNIFG).
stop talking so much. Chicks talk. Men do. A lot of guys also phrase this as "demonstrate, don't explicate" and "acta non verba".
more weights, less tanning. Tanning is worse than useless; it can lead to skin cancer down the road. Re-dedicate that time to the weights, to reading, or some other self-improvement.
read up on dread. One of the keys to it, though, is that dread is the fear of loss. If she's ok with losing you, or thinks you don't have the balls to leave, any dread "game" will be ineffective.
on that note, you mentioned flirting with other women. That's actually demonstrating low value, and anyone telling you to do it is an idiot. You're supposed to be high enough SMV and MMV that other women flirt with you, preferably in front of the wife. Instead of heading it off (like I did pre-Red Pill awakening), you bask in it, encourage it, and/or even flirt back. She needs to know other women find you attractive. Read up on pre-selection.
reassess what you really want. If she's slim and fucking you, that's light years ahead of what most married men get. For my part, I actually encouraged my wife to stop wearing makeup as frequently because it's so bad for them.
If she was already kind of lame on something that was important to you before you two got married, then marrying her was incredibly foolish. Women almost never change for the better post-wedding. You're lucky she isn't fat.
marriage counseling is a waste of time. Usually the counselor joins the wife in blaming the husband for everything.
counseling to deal with the stillbirth might be a good idea for both of you. I don't know enough else about dealing with that particular trauma to advise anything else on it, except be patient with her if she's still working through it.
read about frame.
don't promise shit like "I'll never look at porn again". Now that you've promised that, it'll be difficult to walk back without damaging your credibility.
There's a lot more, but that's a start. Also, I recommend checking out Rian Stone's YouTube channel, especially his sidebar series. He's senior endorsed at the original TRP subreddit and a moderator at the MRP subreddit. He doesn't bat a thousand, but then again no one does. He has some damned good content, though. I frequently listen to his stuff while I commute.
Don't expect anything to magically get better overnight. This will be a marathon, rather than a sprint.
mattyanon Admin 1y ago
I've tried this. Outlining expectations in advance. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.
Actually in this case, she's doing better than most. But I accept it's not as good as you like
She has no motivation. Sticking to her agreement is not motivation: those are words she said to get married, not commitments she intended to keep.
This is bluepill advice. Basically "if your wife isn't doing enough, do more stuff for her".
which you've done a lot of.
The advice is designed to benefit her, not to fix the situation.
And this is the problem. You are completely sold on making the marriage work and being respectful of her, and this means she can be secure, lazy, unmotivated. She isn't particularly feminine in her outlook, and has no motivation and nothing to gain from pleasing you.
She is being fucking ridiculous.
yes, it's absurd.
That's a valid reason, but not if it was happening BEFORE the event.
Right.
This is the male side of the marriage agreement, it's what men expect.
Women expect 100% unconditional commitment and to have to put in zero effort. For women, marriage is life on easy mode, basically like retirement. "sure sure whatever just sign here" and then they are sorted for life.
Right
Couples therapy will make no difference because you both understand the issue already.
Normally people recommend dread game: work out, get in shape, look at other women, show less commitment and demonstrate more options. Sometimes this twinge of jealousy can spark female interest.
But in this case I think she's only interested in your commitment and her doing very little to work on herself. Basically you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole....... At some level, deep down, I don't think she is the woman you want, and she has proved that she isn't going to try to be.
No-Stress-Cat 1y ago
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the comments is your circular expectations of her.
In one breath you say:
And then turn around and say:
Make up your mind. Is she beautiful and sexy as she is or is she too fat an unhealthy?
No wonder she's confused. She's damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.
Telling her one thing and then expecting the opposite is putting her in a lose-lose situation.
You gotta be fair in your expectations.
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