Disclaimer: This began as a reply to u/loneliness-inc's post here. I encourage you to read that as well.
Traditional women vs Feral women:
As Dalrock noted in his post, there is only one main difference between a woman who was brought up traditionally and any other women. Unlike feral women, a traditional woman who grew up under the supervision of her father and in a patriarchal society gets disciplined enough through incentives to look past her base biological impulses. She will be incentivized to behave better than her true nature. Can she still become a slut? Sure. Just give her enough opportunities and incentives and she will revert back to her natural feral self.
It is a common trope in trp that women are only as comfortable or atrocious as you allow them to be. Women are indeed only as decent as their society demands them to be. Unless they have a higher standard set by the society, women will make sure that they all follow the lowest common denominator. Women of character are not born. They are made. And they are made by men of character. It usually does not go the other way. Single mothers are the worst influence on their own children because they never had a father figure to guide them and build them to be decent human beings. Absent a dad, these women will look for a daddy. Since they don't know what a positive father figure looks like, they look up to badboys, who are in their same moral league. Traditional women are not some perfect beings by default. They are made to be perfect through tons of effort. Without a patriarchal society and a strong father figure to enforce high standards, you cannot get a traditional woman. The problem with thinking that "If feminism was eliminated, we'll go back to an utopia" is that it assumes that women are decent human beings by default. They are not. And even if they somehow build themselves up to be decent human beings (which is very rare because hardship only increases bitterness in women and not moral strength), it might very well be too late for them since time does not work on their favor as it does for men.
Good girls:
Third world women who are taken out of their societies and placed in first world countries are very good examples of this. Their character and good nature was only because of the environment they lived in. Women are like water. They will take the form of the container you pour them into. For a third world woman to maintain her good character even in a first world country, she needs to be placed in a community heavy with her native people who will still hold her accountable to their culture.
Women primarily look for protection, provision and validation from their men and their society. The behavior of women heavily depends on these factors and especially on where she derives her validation. If her validation comes from a functional structure, like a patriarchal society or a family, she will be a "good girl". If it is not, you will see a race to degeneracy because while men tend to uplift each other, women tend to drag each other down to eliminate competition.
In traditional societies, women used slut shaming as a means to eliminate competition. While men might not marry sluts, they do not mind them and do not have to shame them. They would just take what a slut has to offer and be content with that. In feminist societies, the shaming is directed towards feminine, stay-at-home women.
Feminism and families:
Even for you to eliminate feminism, you need to establish a patriarchal society first. You need to make families cool and respectable so that she will be eager to get her validation from that system. This is, needless to say, an almost impossible undertaking in a society that has devolved into sexual degeneracy.
If you want to start a family, consider the character of the girl and especially where she derives her need for validation from. You stand a better chance when you choose a feminine girl who submits to your authority rather than a feminist cunt who will hesitate to take your name.
The concept of "courting process" was used to vet a woman to see if she had the necessary qualities to be a good wife. This process was not, in itself, something that was supposed to provide validation to a woman's ego by having the man chase her. You will need to vet the girl thoroughly before you give her any commitment. Remember that women are experts at pretending to be exactly what you are looking for. Take the fact that majority of women do not identify as feminists for an example. Just because women tell you that they are no longer feminists does not mean that they are going to stop acting like feminists. It just means that they will not identify as one. The silent majority of women indeed do not identify as feminists. Does that mean feminists are a minority? No. It just means that most women would rather not outwardly identify themselves as feminists. While most women might not agree with the feminists out loud, they keep quiet because it is to their advantage. When unopposed and unregulated, these outspoken feminists do end up giving the silent women more rights than they had before. And in their thinking, by staying silent they can maintain the plausible deniability if feminism goes south tomorrow. Their hope will be to nawalt their way out of the feminist mess. So while they might not openly oppose or accept feminism, they will maintain silence until they stand to benefit from it. You need to strip women of their plausible deniability to see what they will be willing to do.
If any woman is telling you that she is traditional, tell her that she is secondary to her husband. Her answer to that will tell you all you need to know. Matter of fact, a good litmus test I use to smoke out faux-conservatives is to tell them that in a family, the kid takes more priority than the wife. To pussy-worshipers, this is anathema. To them, it's always the wife first, the kid second and the man last. In any patriarchal society, it's either the man or the kid first, the other the second and the woman last. Women who identify as traditional for the convenience of it have trouble actually submitting to a man.
On women improving themselves:
Even the popular manosphere forum of redpillwomen, which is touted to be a woman's equivalent of trp, is not about maintaining the innocence of a girl. No. It is about teaching sluts ways to mimic themselves as a traditional woman. I have touched on the topic of redpillwomen extensively in this post and in this comment that was derived from the previously mentioned post. A RPW, in my opinion, is not even close to what a traditional woman is. RPW, in my opinion, are not as genuine or as desirable as good women who were brought up in traditional families raised by strong fathers. They're merely attempting to pass themselves as one. They are not as kind, not as pleasant and not as innocent or sweet because they did not have a strong father to protect them. The latter does not even know RPW exists because they have no need for it.
Men need to build themselves up. Women need to stay innocent.
Women (in general and especially the RPW kind) are notorious for taking good advice, molding it to fit their hypergamous desires and purpose whilst calling themselves enlightened. In an age where female independence and choice addiction is the thing, women need to feel as if they are setting the conditions to even submit whereas in truth, all they actually need to do is to submit. The fundamental defining element of feminism is the refusal to submit.
A fish cannot teach a fisherman how to fish. In attempting to do that proactively, women are setting themselves up for failure (when they try to teach a beta on how to lead or when they attempt to condition an alpha to their desires) or redundancy (when they attempt to teach an alpha how to lead or attempt to condition a beta on their desires). Truth be told, women do not have much choice in this equation other than to submit. This is why traditional societies spent huge effort in keeping women as innocent as possible. The idea that women need to condition themselves for marriage is just another variation of the maturity myth phenomenon that I have written about.
Men look for innocence/helplessness in women. Women look for mastery in men. Men want a woman they can build up. Teach things to. Women look for such a man. If a woman is already "mature", then a guy has nothing to invest on. There won't be any healthy bonding that happens between a benevolent mentor and an impressionable apprentice. He will invest just enough to get sex. And that will be it. Even if these red pill women succeed in creating a loving bond with their alphas, it will be nowhere as strong or genuine as the bond between the same alpha and an innocent woman. Women fail to understand the importance of innocence to a man and the attractiveness it brings and thus, by themselves, can never make themselves attractive to a man in the same way a traditional woman can. It should be clear that traditional women are not default women. They are an end product of a carefully constructed structure that aims to deliver a high quality product from raw material.
FoxCatDogLionApe 5y ago
Great post, looking back 20 years i resonate with this post. Innocence has always been attractive to us men. Society will always tell you that is predatory to seek out innocent women.
[deleted] 5y ago
I've only ever dated 18-24 year old women. 20-25 I only dated 18 year olds. None of their peers cared about this. The "society" that frowns on this are 1.) older, scared shitless women with lower SMV and 2.) older, jealous men who themselves wish they could date younger women.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
You're just a pedophile for not liking old, used up women. Now, man up and marry those sluts to prove your manhood. Go on. Don't wait too long now. She just might fuck someone in that time.
theoracleofosiris 5y ago
This is the true redpill.
[deleted] 5y ago
Even worse is the fact that western women have no intention to talk with men. If you talk about something that do not involve them you see their mind disconnecting or they start looking at their phone.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
If you encourage narcissism and solipsism, that's what you will get.
loneliness-inc Mod 5y ago
Here are some of my discombobulated thoughts, pieced together over the last two days. If it's incoherent, that's why and my apologies.
While this is an accurate description of female nature, we ought to do everything we can to not enable this bad behavior. Just like we need to step above our own base instincts in many other ways, we also need to step above our instinct to save women from every disaster, even those that are self inflicted.
Likewise, men of character are made and not born. The difference between men and women (in addition to the biological differences discussed in the link earlier in this comment) is that women are coddled by family, friends and strangers. This coddling further prevents them from taking responsibility for themselves and others. It further prevents them from developing their character. Men OTOH need to tough it out in the world. Thus, more men are forced to develop their character.
I'm not so sure about that. Sure, this is sometimes the case, but I don't know that you can make a clear link here.
To clarify, let's back up a bit. I think you'd agree that what makes fathers better parents and mothers worse parents is consistency and discipline, both in terms of self and in terms of how they treat the kids. Fathers are more consistent and more disciplined. Mothers are less consistent and less disciplined. Fathers who spoil their little princess will raise them like a single mother.
So to say that fathers raise good daughters might be statistically true but it doesn't explain the underlying character building traits which are consistency and discipline, both of which are tools of the patriarchy.
And even then, it'll devolve back into feminism after some time of safety and prosperity.
As an example: every time the topic of signing a prenup comes up over at RPW, the overwhelming majority of women there are vehemently against it. If you're against feminism, surely you'd want to assist your man in protecting himself from its ravages, right? Right?
Because owning your ideological beliefs and opinions requires responsibility.
Well, TRP is a series of ideas that describe the truth about male and female nature. Therefore, it's impossible to be a RPW just like it's impossible to be a redpill man. All you can do is apply some strategies that are derived from these ideas, into your daily life to hopefully improve said life.
If a woman were to do this, RPW would be best for her when she's a young virgin who isn't set in her (cunty) ways. That's when it's useful for her to understand human nature and set reasonable expectations for herself. To learn how to vet for a man with the correct balance of alpha and beta qualities. To learn how to be a good first mate who brings her captain her problem, not her solution and all the other good advice that's in the RPW sidebar. However, if her pussy is already blown out, her looks are fading and she's already an entitled cunt - RPW won't have much to offer to save her because she already squandered her non renewable assets. All she can do is be realistic with her expectations and settle for what she can get. She can do this but it's highly unlikely.
This is because women value, value in men. To gain value, you must be valuable by adding or creating value. This requires accomplishment, which is gained with time and experience. Men however, are attracted to youth, beauty and purity. These are non renewable resources.
Many RPW want it both ways. They want the power of feminism with the benefits of traditionalism. To be led and taken care of by a strong male leader but to also hold veto power like a feminist woman. To be financially supported by their husband but to also have the ability to shop. Etc etc etc.
BluepillProfessor 5y ago
He who has eyes let them see.
Yep, they are women. To a woman information is used to undermine men and maintain/take control. To a man trp is used to further his relationships and to benefit his family.
It is subtle but important distinction.
Single moms are more likely to raise promiscuous daughters and cc Riders and despondent sons who are taught to serve women at their personal expense. The crime factories that are single mom homes cannot be ignored.
Women have been shopping for thousands of years. That's not why they rebel and refuse to cooperate. That's not why they turn into cunts. They do it for the power to sexually torment their husband and give them the illusion of power over their body.n After all, if she can make him lose it, or cry, or even commit suicide then she can revel in her self righteous victimhood and the knowledge of her vagina power.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
I agree. Functional societies are built by restricting unsavory behavior of both genders. People need to be properly channeled for their efforts to be productive to society. Women, especially, need to be dreaded to submission. Women not having had financial freedom might look like savage behavior from modern eyes but slowly we're understanding the reasons why that came to be.
Nature and nurture. Men, by nature, have to succeed. Women, by nature, do not have that drive. There's no do or die for women other than reproduction. Don't be a mouthy cunt and you can have a relatively happy life. Men can't have that. Nurture does play a role in conditioning men but I've seen a lot of fatherless guys who pick up role models to fashion themselves after. It takes a village to raise a man. Women though? I have never seen that same drive. Sure, women can achieve decency on their own. But excellence? That's a very different story.
Consider who we talk about in Male and female role models even now. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Oprah. High achievers vs an entertainer. Women have every opportunity to shine in tech. They just don't. Why? Because they can't. How many women have been conquerors? None.
Sure, technically, this is true. But, I'm talking innate nature. Men can build themselves up. Women need to be built up. This is why I brought up RPW as an example.
Oh, they are even worse. To an extent, I look kindly upon western women than women who moved from traditional countries and pissed it all away. At least one has had no exposure. The other chose to piss it away. Similarly, compared to a girl who got spoiled by her overprotective father I look at daughters of single mothers kindly. Would I get involved with either? Fuck no. But at least one has my sympathy.
True. Hard times, hard men. Hard men, safe times. Safe times, easy men. Easy men, hard times. It is a cycle. And it can be observed throughout history across various civilizations.
It would be useless even then. Observing the process alters said process for you. Participating in that process will completely alter it too. Once you're redpill, you're effectively not the same. Certain things are ruined forever. Considering innocence is the one key thing that is attractive to men, women cannot go back from knowledge to innocence. They can pretend to be innocent. But they are not actually innocent, are they? That might work on a guy who is not accustomed to innocence. But for one that is used to it, this will not be the same. RPW's entire strategy hinges on you not having had access to traditional women so that they can convince you that they are one.
This all plays to the impossible alpha bucks standard that women dream of. The problem is, a man who had to build himself up, through harsh times, is not going to supplicate. Experience and maturity makes men hard. Women want you to be the lover and the master. You can't get both, especially the longer it takes for you to become accomplished.
This is what women always want though. Two impossible things at the same time. The gentle savage. But if they have to choose, they'll always go for the master.
Looking at it another way, if I have enough value to be considered valuable, why would I put up with any shit from any dumb woman who thinks she's so special that she warrants special treatment? I would just move on to one that understands the dynamic and acts according to it. This is why post wall women get passed up for younger women.
Sticky your comment, will you?
[deleted] 5y ago
This rang a bell. I live in a third world country. I used to date a girl, who would often dress sexy but not too sexy, wear makeup in a modest manner, nothing that would catch too much attention, after we broke up, a couple of years later she moved with her older sister and mom to Italy. A couple of years ago I saw some pictures of her on parties and clubs, she dressed like a slut and wore excessive makeup, taking suggestive pictures with her new Italian friends. Up until she lived here she was a virgin, but she probably started fucking someone when she got there, because she developed some massive breasts, something she didn't have here, it didn't help the fact that she was raised by a cheater mom, and a dominating older sister.
Date another girl raised by a single mother? Never again. You have both parents (preferably a strong father) or I am not dating you.
DeeplyDisturbed1 5y ago
/u/moorekom - It still gets me when someone whom I have never met can write about a topic that is somewhat philosophical, and yet it still resonates deeply. Often, these posts match up eerily close to my own actual life experiences.
So to add to your post, if I may, this sort of post is not fantasy or purely theoretical. It is not just a few angry men, or incels, or whatever the insult Du Jour may be - this shit is for real. Big time.
This sub really needs more attention. With TRP and others like it being quarantined, our work here becomes increasingly important as the powers that be start clamping down on free speech.
On behalf of the others who might want to say it, but are too lazy, thank you for this quality content. Without you and about a half dozen other contributors, this sub (and others), would not be nearly as valuable.
No need to respond.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
The process of building oneself up is not so dissimilar for most men. Most of us face the same constraints and even across societies, female nature remains fundamentally the same. It's no wonder our stories and observations resonate.
I'm just passing along the knowledge I've accumulated through various sources with my own observations thrown on top. My intent is to either wake more people up or to have some one educate me and help me improve further.
We are a niche content sub. Our standards are quite high too. You know how many people we kick out just for rule 1 alone. Although more attention would be nice, I would much rather have quality than quantity. My aim with this child sub in particular is to just drive up quality posts and discussions. I can only hope to achieve it by contributing quality content myself. Credits also go to our mod team, other content contributors and our analysts.
NohoTwoPointOh 5y ago
Great post, great read. Danke!
moorekom Mod 5y ago
Glad it was helpful dude.
smokeythecat420 5y ago
Great read, thank you
moorekom Mod 5y ago
My pleasure.
[deleted] 5y ago
Dude,These are God-Tier level posts.
Is there a way to convert what is said here into a PDF?
I would like to have this for future Referencing
moorekom Mod 5y ago
Here you go.
http://archive.is/Sfr9O
You can use this site to archive online articles. If you're using chrome, you can click on the print option and choose print to pdf to save it in pdf.
Check out Dalrock's blog and Rational Male blog dude. You'll learn a lot more from there.
[deleted] 5y ago
Thanks ,OP
beenthere789 5y ago
You sirs, are the modern day answer to Marcus Aurelius. Shame that facts and logic you present are wasted on modern day women. In order to expand and encapsulate them in your audience, you need to write a ten volume treatise entitled "Meditations and Dissertations on wahmens fee fees" along with "Analysis and Lamentations on where have all the good men gone" Include boxed wine and cat litter in thise volumes at no extra charge, and then prepare for a most comfortable retirement.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
None of what we write is for the consumption of women. If you want to fix women, you just have to fix men first.
Although women do benefit from manosphere, involving them in any of this is going to be counter-productive. Women have no regard for things that are in progress. They are built to look for a finished product.
This is for men. We're here to build each other up. Women crave a commanding man. They feel pride in being with such a man. This is just a space to discuss our theories and to compare notes so that we can become such men. I also don't see the point in enlightening women. If we enlighten ourselves, they will submit regardless.
comptejete 5y ago
This is the crux of the matter. Fix men and the women will fix themselves. Feral women are the dead canaries in the coal mine of lost masculinity.
loneliness-inc Mod 5y ago
Old fashioned women weren't inherently better, they were just raised and lived within a system that punished bad female behavior to one degree or another (depending on where and when you lived). Old fashioned women were better in practice because they didn't have the enabling freedom to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted it.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
Exactly. They were not better. They were just better bets for marriage or relationships.
loneliness-inc Mod 5y ago
To say they were better is inaccurate.
To say they were not better is inaccurate.
This is why people can argue endlessly whether the old times were better or not and both sides can have valid points.
In this case, women of old were better from a practical standpoint. But their characters were that of female nature in all its congealed period blood glory.
moorekom Mod 5y ago
Everything is in context. Everything has its pros and cons. If you want to have a stable family, then patriarchy is a better option. If you want to play the field, then the current system where hypergamy reigns supreme (and one where you're just along for the ride^1 ) is a better option.
^1 She's not yours. It's only your turn.