Disclaimer: The opinions here all mine. Take this for what it is. An opinion put forth to initiate discussion and challenge our viewpoints in an attempt to understand reality. As with everything, keep an open mind but make your own judgement. I look forward to the discussions. I recently wrote an article and had an elaborate discussion there about the nature of men and women. You don’t have to read that to understand this, but it might be helpful. Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAllTheGoodMenAre/comments/90s2l3/evolution_does_not_give_a_fuck/
We’ve seen a lot of women lamenting the lack of good men in our subs. Rather than to ridicule women for their demands for wanting a good man and acting to the contrary, I’ve been trying to figure out what exactly a good man is. A good man is definitely not the good man as defined by society. A good man as defined by society is just a compliant man: a man who would follow orders and not cause trouble. While that might be good for the people who control the society and make decisions on its directions, that doesn’t do anything to said good man on any capacity except to not get you in trouble with the authorities. We all know that there are betas, alphas and omegas. We talk about the betas a lot. A beta is just a compliant man who submits to authority and lacks the courage to stand up for himself. He does not want trouble. He is non-confrontational. He adopts the beliefs of others without analyzing it or putting it to practice to see if said belief has any value. He is the butt of the jokes because he puts himself at the bottom willingly to avoid trouble. For our discussion, we need not consider the beta much. Who we should be concentrating are the alphas.
I clearly distinguish alphas into two categories: alpha fucks and alpha bucks. Alpha fucks is your stereotypical chad who slays pussy. The internet is full of instructions on how to be this guy. Everyone is fascinated by chad and everyone wants to be chad. There is certainly allure in it. But what merit is there in being this guy apart from the fact that you get to live a hedonistic life to satisfy your vanity and ego? If you stop to think for a minute, you will realize that you cannot have a meaningful, lasting relationship with a submissive woman and raise a family in most parts of the world right now but if you put in the effort, you can fuck a hundred girls who have seen more or less the same amount of cocks like whores 50 years ago. While becoming chad is certainly a good way to win the battle, you definitely lose the war just because you chose to fight under the conditions set by your enemy, which is the current dating climate as defined by feminism and other such feminine primary organizations. This is why you see some pick up artists and redpillers lamenting a lack of purpose and feeling of emptiness after all the pussy they’ve had.
It’s a popular expression in the manosphere: women are a lagging indicator of success. And they are. Just because you can attract quantity does not mean you’ve attracted quality. Most of the advice in the manosphere you see will stop here because of two reasons. One, this is the easy road. It is easy to advice someone on how to become rich but it is tough to instruct them on how to build an empire. Most people will not understand it either. They don’t want to work on endlessly towards a goal that they are not sure will happen while avoiding fun. Two, your mission in life is not the same as mine. I cannot tailor your life based on what I think is best for me at the moment in my life. People who understand that you need to build your own path do one of two things: explain things to you and let you know that this is the way it is or they give you the bare minimum and leave you to figure things for yourself on the hopes that one day you will.
This brings us to the next category: alpha bucks. This is the mythical being that women chase after. A man who knows who he is in life, what his mission is, has his own belief and will do his best to stand up for it. He has mental stability, maturity, self-confidence, morality, social status and of course, financial stability (if he’s not wealthy now then at least the potential for it). As you can see, this is a rare being. This is what women mean when they lament the lack of good men. We confuse a socially compliant man for an alpha bucks.
The way men and women implement their sexual strategy is different. A man can have a main girl, fuck a hundred girls besides her and still love his main girl if she stands by him and supports him. Kings with a Queen and a harem or a wealthy man with a wife and a mistress (or mistresses) is not uncommon. Men can detach themselves emotionally from the lay and concentrate on the lover. A woman cannot. If a woman sleeps with a hundred guys, in her mind, it was all an attempt to find that one alpha bucks that she will feel comfortable submitting to. In her mind, she was exploring and leveling up towards her dream guy. Trouble is, what women value in men is not what men value in women. Men value innocence, compliance and beauty. Most men would compromise on beauty (to a certain extent) but they won’t compromise on compliance (or on innocence to a lesser extent based on their individual societies) if they are looking for an actual relationship. A lot of seducers end up settling for a girl because of this reason. They get fed up with beauty without compliance (or innocence) and want to take a chance on finding out if this girl has that potential and they get screwed over most of the times because they never developed themselves to the point of becoming an alpha bucks. They might know all the tricks, sure. But without a belief system to back it up, you will not stand a chance. Men need to have a mission and a vision on how they will achieve it. This can be as elaborate as building an empire or as attainable as building a family (this is not so easily attainable these days). In essence, you need to be a leader. This is not an easy path. For there to be improvement, you need to suffer. The more you want to improve, the more you need to suffer.
Ever noticed the difference between when you are chasing a girl and a girl is chasing you? Apart from the ego boost that the latter gives you, the latter has you and her on your natural state. She’s happy to chase something she knows is more valuable than her and you’re happy that you did something valuable enough to get her to chase you. The former is not so natural. With the act of chasing her, you have admitted to yourself and her that she is more valuable than you. Women do not look for what they can have. They look for what they cannot have and declare that they deserve it. This is why betas, MGTOWs and MRAs are not taken seriously by women. It’s not natural for men to beseech anything from them. Men are supposed to set the tone of the relationship with women.
People, and women especially, will treat you the way you let them treat you. This is not to say that if you stand your ground with a police officer, he’s gonna let you go. That might depend on whether the fault was yours or not. Similarly, your belief system and the self-confidence it brings you will dictate the course of your interaction with others. The most success I’ve had with people was when I felt justified in what I was doing. You can either demand respect or command it. I’ve done both. Demanding respect might get you noticed but to command respect, you need to have character. It takes longer to get one and the respect it brings will last longer too.
Lastly, I wanted to delve a little bit into the nature of women before getting into the overall point of this lengthy article. Patrice O’Neal once said a very profound thing: Women don’t want to win, they want a winner. They want to look at a winner and go ‘This motherfucker is my man’. The unhappiness, lack of direction and discontent that women feel stem from one simple thing: women looked up to the apex men and decided one day that they wanted to do what the leaders do. They did not decide to do it for all the righteous reasons. They decided to do it because they wanted to attract a better man than they would get otherwise. That’s what feminism provides to a woman: the opportunity to better her value in hopes of finding a better value alpha bucks. Only, needless to say, that has backfired spectacularly as feminism goes against nature. You either play the game that nature has laid out for you or you become an evolutionary dead end. This goes for betas who get cucked to spinsters who end up being alone and lonely. Weeding out the unworthy is what evolution is. For men, either we build ourselves up to someone who is worth a fuck or we get weeded out. For women, either she chooses wisely in her youth or she ends up a spinster. Throughout history, you’ll see men get rewarded for building something of value whether it be positive or negative. While what you want is up to you, who you get and how you maintain is not. The greater difference between a beta and a leader is that while a beta gives to get validation, the leader gives to share what he has to those who deserve it.
Edit: Please do read the comments for discussions. Better yet, participate so that we can expand on this theory.
Edit 2: Edited on 2/2/2022 for better structure and clarity.
[deleted] 6y ago
It is true, in the sense that women want the alpha bucks, always. Even when they find one, they are still looking for a better one. The alpha fucks is just an illusion to them. He makes them feel good because other women also want him, but once she has him, he becomes the beta loser almost immediately. Women don't want competition for their alpha bucks, because he is more valuable than the tingles he provides them, so they fiercely fend off other women that flirt with him. And here is where it gets tricky. They know they need to keep such a rare man, so they will always shit test him harder than the alpha fucks or beta bucks. They know he is wanted, so they will attempt to beta-ize him in order to keep other women from taking their status and resources that he means to her. If she is successful, he will get dropped into the same bucket as the rest of the billys and darius'. She will loose attraction for him as soon as she doesn't have to fend him from other women again.
They always want to win because they need winners to be better at winning then them. You need to have consistent value, not just be a better man at some things, but make yourself look like a better man at every thing. You must create the illusion that you are better at being women then even women are and use that perception to dominate them and make them fear you.
You worded this very well, that feminists are the last stage shit tests for society. If they are succeeding, it is because men are loosing. Men have the benefit of being able to see this macroscopic picture that is being painted, because we have been blessed as self sufficient resource gatherers. Men have the innate ability of cost/benefit insight into their options within their environment. The problem isn't that they have lost that ability, it is just that the society they built has provided enough benefits/resources for them avoid laying down a similar cost. Women, not having to rely upon individual men for their survival and other luxuries requires more from men than they are naturally afforded within the elements of nature, while men are getting less from women than they desire. This widening spectrum causes men to rationalize that the cost of being the alpha described above is greater than the benefit of keeping a submissive woman around to dominate.
The crux of all this, is that the benefits being supplied to the people in todays society is borrowed from the futures they have yet to capitalize on. The less work that people need to live the life that is acceptable to them, the less work they end up doing, which in turn requires borrowing farther and farther out until the collateral or potential they have can no longer sustain the interest of what they are borrowing against. This means that men are not attempting to be what women want because women already get what they need, but it is not a hard/reliable resource like everyone thinks it is. The cost of obtaining these benefits is not rationalized directly as it has been in history, so the evolutionary cycle of empires also falls under a different paradigm. There is an illusion that their resources are plenty and is artificially shifting mens requirement to be Good Men out of the gears of the machine that society runs on, but in reality it is running on fumes and can not be sustained for very much longer.
moorekom Mod 6y ago
I would not call AF as an illusion. AF might be more of a temporary stop gap while women are looking for that AB. This explains why they are ready to disclose all the cocks they have had to AF. Women do that because they don't expect the AF to be a provider or for that relationship to last very long. It's just temporary fun. With an AB, she might still have fun with him but she will much more compliant and more girl-friendy(if that makes sense). She will be more jealous, she will mate guard more and would generally be more invested. I don't think women shit test more when it comes to AB. They might comfort test more. I've lost a couple of girls because I got confused about this distinction. I treated their tests as shit tests and agreed and amplified whereas it was actually her looking for comfort to invest more. This, needless to say, puts you in the AF category and makes her lose interest in you gradually. Truth be told, that loss made me think and finally brought me to this little revelation as I knew something didn't feel right. The other side of this equation is getting dropped into the beta category if you over invest. It is indeed a very tight rope that an AB has to walk. Not enough over investment to make her think you've become beta and just enough investment to make her realize that you're not just an AF so that she can feel comfortable investing more.
//You need to have consistent value, not just be a better man at some things, but make yourself look like a better man at every thing//
I don't think you need to be perfect in everything. You can use the imperfection to make her feel comfortable. If you can pull it off on a non needy way, she will respect you all the more for opening up to her and that will make her feel special. But, the pitfall to this is that you cannot belabor the point. You need to open up in a non needy way, be casual about it and can not mention it again for any sympathy. I've had a situation where a girl was asking me about how often I talk to my mom (we were talking about mothers day). On surface, this can be taken as her shit testing you to see if you're a beta. But she was testing to see if I was an AB. The distinction between the two was that she already knew that I was an alpha. She wanted to know how much importance I placed on family. Soon enough she was asking me what kind of girls I like. She just wanted to make that distinction between AF and AB as I had already established what I was and she had already bought into that. Shit is too nuanced.
// Women, not having to rely upon individual men for their survival and other luxuries requires more from men than they are naturally afforded within the elements of nature, while men are getting less from women than they desire. This widening spectrum causes men to rationalize that the cost of being the alpha described above is greater than the benefit of keeping a submissive woman around to dominate.//
Eloquently put.
//This means that men are not attempting to be what women want because women already get what they need, but it is not a hard/reliable resource like everyone thinks it is. //
They are not getting what they want. They are getting close to what they want. I know it's a small distinction and that that is still better than what men are getting, but I think that it matters enough to be mentioned. The reset is coming. As I said in the last post, if we, as men, don't reset the current scenario ourselves, then nature will reset it for us. And you don't get to choose how that reset is going to be. This is what most of the "Enjoy the decline" hedonistic TRPers don't get.
Great reply. We'll discuss more.
[deleted] 6y ago
A few comments to a thoughtful essay.
That describes the beta's personality. The beta is the man who gets most of the attention in the manosphere and the red pill subreddits because there are far more betas than there are alphas and omegas. The betas occupy the "fat" middle of the curve.
The beta is the pillar on which society rests. He does most of the work, most of the living, fighting, building, working, and dying for "society" and those around him. He's the guy who, 40 or 50 or 60 years ago, graduated high school and went to work in the farms, factories and mills. Or he went to the military, then came home and worked in the farms, factories and mills. Or he went to college and graduate/professional school, and worked in the offices and burgeoning "service economy". He got married by age 25 to the third or fourth girl he ever fucked. Usually, he stayed married to her in a marriage of varying quality. Your dad was/is probably a Beta.
Today, the Beta is the Average Frustrated Chump. He can get some girls interested in him initially but can't keep anything going because he chumps/betas out, or he's a fat out of shape guy, or he won't assert himself because women and society say that's "NOT NICE". Asserting yourself as a man is not nice, it's aggressive, it's harassing, it's presumptuous, it's "entitled".
I don't know if this is why you get "PUA burnout". I think the reason why guys get burned out, bored and tired of sex with so many different women is that the challenge isn't there anymore; "it's just pussy". Things don't mean all that much to you if you can get them easily. (Which is a major reason why women treat average men like shit - average men are so incredibly easy to use, exploit, manipulate and control.)
Nah. Take her down off that pedestal. Women sleep with men for many, many different reasons, only one of which is because she's looking for her unicorn ONE, her alpha bucks. Women fuck guys for
--validation
--affirmation
--bragging rights with her girlfriends
--because all her girlfriends fucked him and said he was a good lay/has a huge cock and she wants to find out for herself if what they said is true
--because she was horny at that moment
--pity sex
--duty sex/relationship maintenance sex
--enticing a beta bux into marrying her, after which she will immediately put him on an IV drip supply of sex for maintenance purposes and so she can say to him
It's been said that the current SMP/RMP is one of women's disrespect for men; and men's hatred for women. Stated another way, women want to respect their men. They want a man they can submit to. And most women don't respect their men, mostly because most men don't expect respect from their women. Most men aren't worthy of respect - they're unassertive, passive, passive/aggressive, out of shape, have no plan, have no mission, and have no vision for their lives.
Men want to love women. Men want to love THEIR women. They want women they can love, care about, and protect/provide for. That last part - care about, protect/provide for - is one of the greatest acts of love a man can show. And women who refuse that, shit on it, whatever else - causes men to not love women. And most men don't love their women, or don't love women at all. Most women are not lovable. They're bitchy, cruel, unkind, unhappy, jaded, hardened, and cynical.
Most women don't respect men. Most men don't love women.
moorekom Mod 6y ago
Most of our dads are beta. That's why we're here, trying to figure life out for ourselves.
//Nah. Take her down off that pedestal. Women sleep with men for many, many different reasons, only one of which is because she's looking for her unicorn ONE, her alpha bucks//
I agree. You don't have to be an AB to fuck girls. Any guy with enough confidence can get some girl. I was trying to clarify how her inner hamster works. In her mind, it all has a purpose. This is why you see all these pumped up girls saying they're finally ready for something real. With an AB.
//And most women don't respect their men, mostly because most men don't expect respect from their women. //
It's a self perpetuating cycle, isn't it? Almost defeatist. Guys are conditioned to be betas from childhood but women want men who are assertive. I guess this is what happens when men don't have a greater purpose as a society. A purpose gets created for you. If you don't give your girl drama, she'll create it for her herself.
//Most men aren't worthy of respect - they're unassertive, passive, passive/aggressive, out of shape, have no plan, have no mission, and have no vision for their lives. Men want to love women. Men want to love THEIR women. They want women they can love, care about, and protect/provide for. That last part - care about, protect/provide for - is one of the greatest acts of love a man can show. And women who refuse that, shit on it, whatever else - causes men to not love women. And most men don't love their women, or don't love women at all. Most women are not lovable. They're bitchy, cruel, unkind, unhappy, jaded, hardened, and cynical. Most women don't respect men. Most men don't love women.//
Such is nature. If balance is lost, then it takes a lot to get back to that balanced state again. Great comment. We'll discuss more.
[deleted] 6y ago
Yeah. Most of men's problems in this arena can be solved when they just say "no". They just need to start saying "no". No, I will not do that. No, because I don't want to. No, because it's not a good idea. No, because we cannot do that.
Too often we men are worried about "mommy" (our wives/girlfriends) getting mad at us, and when Mommy gets mad, she withholds sex or yells at us. I've been there. Never ever again. Fuck that bullshit. Tell her "no" and let the chips fall where they may. She'll get over it. If she doesn't, then it was never meant to be.
Don't accept withholding sex, either. She withholds sex, you withhold affection, attention, and resources. If it happens again, or too often, you just end it with her and move on. You make it clear that her withholding sex is never an acceptable response/tactic/reaction, ever, for any reason. You have to set the frame from the very beginning on that.
One of the reasons married guys have it tough is because his wife has seen him at his omega worst, and because the married guy is changing the rules in midstream. When you change the rules, you risk upending the whole thing. And that's a risk men have to be willing to take. You have to stand up for yourself. And if she leaves because of it, well, then, that's what happens, and you'll both have to live with it.
moorekom Mod 6y ago
//Most of men's problems in this arena can be solved when they just say "no". They just need to start saying "no".//
True. But we are talking about people who are being indoctrinated from childhood to agree to anything a woman says. The fact that happy wife, happy life is taken seriously tells you all you need to know about our current state. It is in fact the other way. And who is to make these indoctrinated people realize that? You are not going to have any progress explaining this to them. They have to learn it the hard way. The only thing that we can do is to set the example of what they can be when they finally realize.
//Don't accept withholding sex, either. She withholds sex, you withhold affection, attention, and resources. If it happens again, or too often, you just end it with her and move on. You make it clear that her withholding sex is never an acceptable response/tactic/reaction, ever, for any reason. You have to set the frame from the very beginning on that.//
Women want to chase. They want to have something that they cannot have. To be in a long term successful relationship with a woman, she should have considered you high value from the beginning and she should have chased you. At the very least, she needs to consider that you have equal value with the potential to improve. She needs to feel like she won you over. Women want to have their own romantic movie only with her chasing you and you settling for her. AF utilizes this through a completely sexual strategy. This is why girls chase the hardest when you have more girls around. Sexually, you've just proved yourself to be high value. But that's not the only way to keep a girl around. And it's not going to keep a girl around for a long time once you get rid of other girls. If the AF doesn't have anything else going for him, he just lost his leverage. This is why a lot of PUAs settle for a girl and become beta eventually. They haven't upgraded themselves into an AB yet. They don't have that mentality yet. That might come with time for some, but most never achieve it as they became AF to get pussy.
//One of the reasons married guys have it tough is because his wife has seen him at his omega worst, and because the married guy is changing the rules in midstream. When you change the rules, you risk upending the whole thing. And that's a risk men have to be willing to take. You have to stand up for yourself. And if she leaves because of it, well, then, that's what happens, and you'll both have to live with it.//
It's easier to set the frame from the beginning and enforce it long term than to set the frame, lose it and then reset it. It's even worse if she had set the frame and you're trying to overcome her frame. It gets progressively tougher. Everything is easy in the beginning. If you are thirsty and let her have her way in the beginning, it's gonna be a serious struggle if not an outright war later on.
[deleted] 6y ago
[removed]
moorekom Mod 6y ago
True. Good man as defined by others almost always means a compliant man. Now, if you show leadership qualities and gain their respect, that definition changes completely.
[deleted] 6y ago
Judging by womrn lamenting their absence, I guessing men are masters of stealth.
moorekom Mod 6y ago
I know this is tongue in cheek but I'm gonna give a serious answer anyway. :)
ABs have to be more selective. They don't settle for any woman like an AF does. They have more to lose and hence they are more selective. It's quality over quantity all the way. It's the difference between royalty and a rock star. These two are two very different categories. While a rock star might fuck a 100 girls, they are not necessarily all quality. In fact, they attract more sluts and gold diggers. Royalty is the opposite end of that. They command respect and the quality they get can be much better. Most royalties don't go about fucking a hundred girls frivolously. They can but most choose not to.
Philhelm 6y ago
Prince Harry fucked up though.
moorekom Mod 6y ago
Let's hope he learns his lesson.